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Meetings/Status Meeting 2006-03-07/transcript

Şuraya atla: kullan, ara

This is the transcript of the 2006-03-07 status meeting


--- Log opened Tue Mar 07 18:00:08 2006
18:00 @<henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Status Meeting!
18:00 @<henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE.
18:00 @<henne> Some technicality's:
18:00 @<henne> This channel is moderated during the time of the session.
18:00 @<henne> But it has +z set so the operator (but nobody else) can see what youre writing. So if you have a question
               or remark just write it.
18:01 @<henne> The moderator then will give you a voice and you can repeat your question for everyone.
18:01 @<henne> The topics of this meeting are:
18:01 @<henne> * Bugzilla permissions
18:01 @<henne> * CDB/HCL - hardware database efforts
18:01 @<henne> * Cleanup old Action Items
18:01 @<henne> * Handling of Action Items
18:01 @<henne> * Additional Wiki Languages

Status SUSE Linux 10.1

18:01 @<henne> unfortunately status of SUSE Linux 10.1 will not happen :-/
18:01 @<henne> because AJ has no time today
18:02 @<henne> ok lets go
18:02 @<henne> first topic

Bugzilla permissions

18:02 @<henne> Bugzilla permissions
18:02 @<henne> cboltz: thats yours
18:02 +<cboltz> I already sent a mail about this in opensuse ;-)
18:03 @<henne> so its done?
18:03 +<cboltz> Currently, several bugs are not "open" because they are SLES bugs etc.
18:03 +<cboltz> This is annoying if you see "your bug is a duplicate of XY",
18:03 @<henne> cboltz: yes so? :)
18:03 +<cboltz> but "XY" is locked.
18:03 +<cboltz> henne_log: no, the problem still exists :-(
18:04 +<cboltz> possible solutions: (from my mail)
18:04 +<cboltz> - as soon as a report for SLES gets a duplication message from another
18:04 +<cboltz>   bugreport for SL, move it to SL - it is REALLY annoying if people see
18:04 +<cboltz>   "this bug is a duplicate of #xxxxx", but can't access #xxxxx and
18:04 +<cboltz>   therefore can't watch the bug.
18:04 +<cboltz> - if a bug is listed at the "Most Annoying Bugs" page, open it - listing
18:04 +<cboltz>   it on qualifies it as SL bug also ;-)
18:04 +<cboltz> Or simply:
18:04 +<cboltz> - open all SLES 10 bugs :-)
18:04 +<cboltz> I don't know what solution would be acceptable for you - let's discuss it now ;-)
18:04 @<henne> ok let me take that
18:04 @<henne> i think there is no technical solution for this
18:05 @<henne> open all SLES-10 bugs isnt possible
18:05 @<henne> because there might things get discussed with partners of novell
18:05 @<henne> we cant breach this confidentiality
18:05 @<henne> so this is something we have to handle otherwise
18:06 @<henne> by reminding people that do it wrong
18:06 @<henne> to do it righjt
18:06 @<henne> -j
18:06 +<cboltz> What about one of the first two solutions (open bugs "on duplicate" and "listed on Most Annoying Bugs
18:06 +<skh> I think moving bugs to SL when a SL bug is duplicate of a !SL bug can be done, but only manually and not
             with all bugs
18:07 @<henne> i think so too. this has to be decided on a bug to bug basis
18:07 +<skh> but we really need to decide this per bug, and make sure that people know that the bug is then public
18:07 @<henne> so cboltz if you see such a bug complain about it on the mailinglist
18:08 +<skh> probably a task for the screening team too
18:08 +<skh> because they filter out duplicates anyway.
18:08 +<cboltz> Could there be at least something technical?
18:08 +<cboltz>  I'm thinking of a reminder "the duplicate had more open permissions - please consider opening this one
                 too" when marking a bug as duplicate...
18:09 +<schiele> if the SLES bug has confidential information in it, the SLES bug should resolve as a duplicate to the
                 SL bug and not the other way around.
18:09 +<_Marcus_> normally you are cced to the duplicate, except someone selects to supress it
18:09 +<skh> schiele: but if the SLES bug is older and already has all the history this is not the best solution either
18:10 @<henne> _Marcus_: but that does not help people that are just viewing
18:10 +<skh> Marcus: but not those who later find the bug through a search
18:10 +<schiele> sure but not being able to track bugs in an "open" project isn't the best solution neiteher
18:10 +<skh> schiele: we're aware of the problem, yes.
18:10 @<henne> cthiel: can you find out if its possible to have such a "warning" in bugzilla?
18:10 +<skh> cthiel isn't there I think
18:11 +<_Marcus_> thats true. a polite inquiry for bugs where you are interested directly to the duplicator might just
                  be the thing
18:11 +<skh> Marcus: you don't see anything about a closed bug.
18:11 +<skh> ah, forget it. you see who set it to duplicate.
18:11 +<cboltz> henne_log: what about just opening a bugreport against bugzilla and ask the experts if it's possible? ;-)
18:12 @<henne> cboltz: just do it! [tm]
18:12 +<cboltz> OK, will do -> Action Item cboltz ;-)
18:12 +<skh> henne: is bugzilla open in bugzilla?
18:12 +<cboltz> shk: as part of product, yes ;-)
18:12 @<henne> can anyone look please? :)
18:12 @<henne> ok
18:12 +<skh> cboltz: which wont
18:12 +<skh> get it to the right people
18:13 @<henne> Action Item cboltz: find out if its possible that bugzilla warns you about duplicating an open bug to an
               closed bug
18:13 +<skh> but assign to me, I'll pass it on to them.
18:13 +<skh> anybody from the screening team here?
18:13 @<henne> well actually we should make bugzilla open
18:13 @<henne> skh: no
18:13 +<cboltz> lets call the action item "open a bug against bugzilla" ;-)
18:14 +<_Marcus_> cboltz: btw, why are you ccing yourself to every open bug?
18:14 +<cboltz> not to every - but as beta tester I'm interested in many things ;-)
18:14 @<henne> _Marcus_: please discuss this in private
18:14 @<henne> not in the meeting
18:14 @<henne> skh: can you take care of opening the bugzilla product?
18:15 @<henne> skh: or at least ask if we can open it
18:15 +<skh> we should talk to the screening team, and ask all internal developers that they move bugs to SL wherever
18:15 +<skh> henne: I don't see this happening too soon, but I can certainly ask them.
18:15 +<adrianS_> it need to be escalated to Jim Stutz
18:15 +<skh> adrianS: yes.
18:15 @<henne> i know you cant press the "open" button. im asking if you can take care of it :)
18:15 +<skh> I just don't want to promise anything ;-)
18:16 +<skh> so yes, AI skh
18:16 @<henne> Action Item skh: ask the bugzilla team if we can make the product bugzilla open for everyone
18:16 +<skh> because so many departments file bugs against bugzilla...
18:16 @<henne> lets see what they say :)
18:16 @<henne> next topic?
18:17 +<cboltz> OK
18:17 @<henne> ok
18:17 +<skh> ok.
18:17 @<henne> next topic is
18:17 @<henne> CDB/HCL - hardware database efforts
18:17 @<henne> duder thats yours
18:18  * henne throws something at the_dude 
18:18 @<henne> ok then not
18:18 @<henne> next topic

Cleanup old Action Items

18:18 @<henne> Cleanup old Action Items
18:19 @<henne> ok we still have old AIs
18:20 +<skh> yes, the community tasks page
18:20 @<henne> let me go trough that list from cboltz


18:20 @<henne> Mailinglists
18:20 @<henne> that is still postponed to after 10.1

FOSDEM (and built service)

18:20 @<henne> FOSDEM
18:20 @<henne> evaluate our FOSDEM participation after FOSDEM
18:21 @<henne> for cthiel, pascal
18:21 +<adrianS_> cthiel is not online atm
18:21 @<henne> pascal also not
18:21 @<henne> skh: can you summarize?
18:21 +<skh> summarize FOSDEM?
18:21 @<henne> yeah
18:21 +<skh> ok.
18:22 +<skh> We had less participants in the talks than I personally had hoped for, but competition from the other dev
             rooms was really hard
18:22 +<skh> and from the main tracks.
18:23 +<skh> we had visitors who just came to visit opensuse, and the first community participations in the speed talks
             and at the booth
18:23 +<skh> this is something I'd like to see a lot more at the next events we might be doing.
18:24 +<skh> build service interest was moderate, but very specific when it was there
18:24 +<skh> maybe adrian can comment on that
18:24  * henne pokes adrianS_ 
18:24 +<skh> we had an Xgl demo at the booth which drew many people to us who wanted to see it in action
18:25 +<skh> so eyecandy works better than package building ;-)
18:25 +<skh> we need better PR, a better booth setup for the next time
18:25 @<henne> yeah
18:26 +<skh> I'm very happy that we could send that many people, next time we should think about sponsoring !suse people
18:26 @<henne> i definately want that
18:26 +<skh> (this is not a promise that we can do it, I have no budget, but I'd like to see it)
18:26 @<henne> suse people are the smallest group in the openSUSE community
18:26 +<skh> and it was about time that we showed our faces at a community event again, both for SUSE in general and
             openSUSE in particular
18:27 @<henne> any of you who attended: anything to add?
18:27 @<henne> schiele?
18:27 +<skh> we are giving build service accounts away if you ask
18:27 +<skh> people are using this, build packages, discussions are starting on the list
18:27 +<skh> please join
18:28 +<skh> that's about all I can say from memory.
18:28 +<schiele> nothing specific to add at the moment but my general rants ;-)
18:28 @<henne> specific rants to fosdem?
18:28 @<henne> or general rants? :)
18:28 +<schiele> only general
18:28 +<adrianS_> we do NOT give accounts for the build service to everybody yet !
18:28 @<henne> schiele: tell them to your barber then... ;)
18:29 +<adrianS_> only to experienced packagers so far
18:29 @<henne> erm how do we identify them?
18:29 @<henne> do i have to have my "experienced packager" id card or how?
18:29 +<schiele> henne: you just _know_ them
18:30 +<skh> adrian: says "If you want an account, ask the openSUSE admin."
18:30 +<skh> adrian: if this is not true, you should refine the wording.
18:30 +<adrianS_> they have to prove it somehow, for example pointing to their repo ;)
18:30  * mmj can help with identifying those, I consider it pretty easy to see
18:31 @<henne> so you have to have some repo thats it?
18:31 @<henne> im just trying to clarify what you need for people that attend here
18:31 +<adrianS_> henne: the BS is not usable for daily work yet, we are in preview phase as described on the wiki pages
18:31 +<skh> adrianS: we all know that
18:32 +<skh> adrianS: but we should document what people have to do to get a preview account
18:32 @<henne> adrianS_: i know i know. the question is: Who can get an own account. You say "experienced packagers"
18:32 @<henne> adrianS_: i just want to know what "experienced packager" means
18:33 +<adrianS_> henne: "build packages since years", "build packages for lots of distributions" or alike
18:34 +<adrianS_> or better, I want to contribute to the BS code
18:34 @<henne> ok. to summarize
18:34 @<henne> If you want a account on the build service at this time you need
18:34 @<henne> - a repo to prove that youre a "experienced packager"
18:35 @<henne> - time to invest to improve the build service
18:35 @<henne> if you dont have those 2 things, wait
18:35 +<mmj> repo can also be changelog entries from rpm distributions
18:35 @<henne> true
18:36 @<henne> ok anything else we need to say about FOSDEM?
18:36 +<skh> let's make sure we get a dev room again next year ;-)
18:37 @<henne> Action Item michl: get a dev room for FOSDEM 2007


18:37 @<henne> ok next item from the list
18:37 @<henne> Mirrors
18:38 @<henne> Action Item henne:
18:38 @<henne> - Discuss mirror situation in [ongoing/done?]
18:38 @<henne> - Involve ftpadmin@suse in the discussion
18:38 @<henne> didnt i put that to the tasks page?
18:39  * henne looks
18:39 @<henne> ok i didnt
18:39 @<henne> then i want to pass that on now
18:39 +<turing> I've read the admin of mentioning confusion between the and opensuse data
18:40 @<henne> read where?
18:40 +<turing> news:ulm.uni.comp I'll look it up.
18:40 @<henne> can you post that to the opensuse list as example?
18:40 +<turing> sure
18:40 @<henne> thanks
18:41 @<henne> next thing


18:41 @<henne> Action Item schiele: [2006-02-21: Discuss this at FOSDEM]
18:41 @<henne> - discuss how we can make the drpmsync service better
18:41 @<henne> - help in the documentation process, extending
18:41 +<schiele> I have given a talk at FOSDEM about improving drpmsync and talked about it to mls.
18:41 @<henne> schiele: did that happen on FOSDEM?
18:41 @<henne> so done
18:41 +<schiele> We have some nice ideas that should solve some problems.
18:42 +<schiele> The ideas are done, the implementation not.
18:42 @<henne> neat :)
18:42 @<henne> so who will implement them?
18:42 @<henne> mls or you?
18:42 +<schiele> We will do it together (so far the plan)
18:42 +<schiele> mls said he will put his tool to a public svn repository
18:42 +<bgerber> Could the ideas be sumerized?
18:43 +<schiele> The ideas are partially on my slides on fosdem
18:43 +<bgerber> So we the community could assit in dev
18:43 +<schiele> But the most important one in my opinion is to distribute the load to other mirror servers
18:43 +<schiele> those other mirror servers don't need to be drpmsync servers themselves
18:43 +<bgerber> I know I have to use the EU mirror as the US one are not adequate
18:44 @<henne> bgerber: so please read the talk from robert
18:44 +<schiele> If someone knows US mirror admins he should definitely talk to them
18:44 +<schiele> The more and better mirrors we have the better the situation
18:45 +<schiele> ... or if someone knows mirror admins from other areas all over the world
18:46 @<henne> ok please lets not get into the mirror discussion again here
18:46 @<henne> let me summarzie
18:46 @<henne> the action items of schiele are
18:46 @<henne> - discuss how we can make the drpmsync service better
18:46 @<henne> that one is done
18:47 @<henne> its not implemented but its discussed
18:47 @<henne> so we should create a new action item for mls
18:47 @<henne> to put drmpsync to some svn
18:47 @<henne> right?
18:47 +<bgerber> New item update wiki/slides with all ideas
18:47 +<schiele> yes, he promissed to do so at FOSDEM
18:48 @<henne> bgerber: that would be the next action item
18:48 @<henne> - help in the documentation process, extending
18:48 @<henne> this is still not done or?
18:48 +<schiele> what is missing on the setup page?
18:48 @<henne> schiele: do you want to put that to the tasks page?
18:49 +<schiele> I don't think the documentation is the problem but the mirror admins _willing_ to do it.
18:49 @<henne> ok so close this AI?
18:49 @<henne> yes or no?
18:49 +<schiele> Well, I might add some stuff but it is not on high priority for me at the moment
18:50 @<henne> schiele: ok lets close it then

put torrents to the wiki

18:50 @<henne> next action item
18:50 +<schiele> fine
18:50 @<henne> put torrentz to the wiki
18:50 @<henne> obviously pending
18:50 @<henne> next item frontpage redesign

18:50 @<henne> frontpage redesign
18:50 @<henne> what going on there?
18:51 @<henne> anyone?
18:51 +<skh> some discussion on the wiki list, but not much
18:51 +<bgerber> also on opensuse list
18:52 @<henne> michl: whats happening there?
18:52 +<michl> pflodo is doing a lot and there are now 1 or 2 pages with proposals
18:53 +<michl> on is having a start page the wikipedia style
18:53 +<michl> so first page just selection for languages
18:53 @<henne> ok
18:53 @<henne> so we should make this AI belong to pflodo?
18:54 +<michl> make to me and pflodo as I volunteered and haven't done much yet :-(
18:54 @<henne> ok so we just leave that one open
18:54 +<michl> yes
18:54 @<henne> next item

Forum discussion

18:54 @<henne> Forum discussion
18:54 @<henne> anything happend here?
18:54 +<skh> well.
18:54 +<skh> probably mine ;-)
18:55 @<henne> skh, Viras, StormX
18:55 +<skh> short and harsh discussion on the list following my announcement that we most likely will have opnesuse forums
18:55 @<henne> did anything happen on your forum Viras?
18:55 +<skh> dropped dead after I repeated what I said on the mailing list.
18:56 @<henne> yes. that was just some random flame ;)
18:56 +<skh> I'm subscribed at now.
18:56 @<henne> i want to know if anything happend on the forum :)
18:56 @<henne> ok
18:56 +<skh> So far the discussion hasn't really started.
18:56 @<henne> well
18:56 @<henne> leave them open then
18:56 +<skh> last comment is from Viras, pretty much the same as what he wrote on the list, no reactions after that.
18:57 @<henne> ok
18:57 @<henne> next item

subfs discussion / "Tasks" page

18:57 @<henne> subfs discussion
18:58 @<henne> add sdb article to the tasks page
18:58 @<henne> skh yours ;)
18:58 @<henne> where is the tasks page?
18:58 @<henne> bad bad girl! 8)
18:58 +<skh> the cat ate it
18:59 @<henne> not micha?
18:59 @<henne> ok not done
18:59 +<skh> yes, community tasks page still missing, not done.
18:59 @<henne> next item

SDB migration / styleguide

18:59 @<henne> SDB migration to wiki
18:59 @<henne> - write HOWTO style-guide
18:59 @<henne> notlocalhorst just wrote a mail to the wiki list
19:00 @<henne> but its not online yet
19:00 @<henne> ongoing
19:00 @<henne> communicate that we want to keep SDB clean of HOWTO like writings
19:02 @<henne> will be done in the howto/sdb styleguides he told me
19:02 @<henne> so both are pending

end user documentation about KMP switch

19:02 @<henne> next item 
19:02 @<henne> - write documentation about the end user part of the KMP switch
19:02 @<henne> also ongoing

documentation about libzypp

19:02 @<henne> next item
19:02 @<henne> add info about all the small YaST tools to the libzypp Wiki page
19:02 @<henne> anyone saw him doing that?
19:02 @<henne> ok ongoing
19:02 @<henne> we lag :(
19:02 @<henne> sorry if its so slow
19:03 @<henne> next item

explain "Feature Freeze"

19:03 @<henne> explain "Feature Freeze" on Factory and write something about the development model to Factory
19:03 @<henne> i think i closed that with my packaging talk

other action items

19:03 @<henne> the other ones from the mail are things for the tasks page
19:04 @<henne> so next topic
19:04 @<henne> or did i forget anything?
19:04 @<henne> obviously not 8)
19:04 @<henne> next topic

Handling of Action Items

19:04 @<henne> * Handling of Action Items
19:05 @<henne> cboltz: yours
19:05 +<cboltz> The question is short: is Bugzilla or a wiki page better to handle open Action Items?
19:05  * henne says bugzilla
19:05 +<cboltz> advantage of bugzilla: you can better follow the status
19:06 @<henne> and you get remembered
19:06 +<cboltz> little disadvantage: it's not in the wiki (or needs a plugin)
19:06 @<henne> you can give the taks away easily
19:06 @<henne> postpone them
19:06 @<henne> and stuff like that
19:06 +<cboltz> I tend to bugzilla also - so there should be a category "action items"
19:07 +<localh0rst> bugzilla and wiki ... like most anyoing bugs, short overview with link to bugzilla
19:07 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> I say bugzilla to, and why should it be on the wike?
19:07 @<henne> i would rather explain the process on a wiki page
19:07 @<henne> and have a simple link to bugzilla
19:07 @<henne> that shows all open action item bugs
19:08 @<henne> no need to duplicate work if we cant pipe bugzilla into wiki
19:08 @<henne> which is how i understand it not possible
19:08 @<henne> darix: right?
19:08 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> why is it not possible?
19:09 @<henne> hes also not here or what?
19:09 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> if Bugzilla can output and feed then wike can get the feed (or is that too complicated)
19:09 @<henne> Azerion|B6ZenZuc: darix tried and its not possible. i dont remember the reasons
19:09 @<henne> but is that really a problem?
19:09 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> Anything is possible....question is: how ;)
19:10 @<henne> there he is
19:10 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> Well, otherwise it have to be done manually...that's twice as much work
19:10 +<darix> we can abuse the bugzilla rss feature for it
19:10 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> but still not a big problem
19:10 @<henne> darix: what about piping some bz query to a wiki page?
19:10 +<darix> but i was told not to investigating further.
19:10 @<henne> by whom?
19:11 +<darix> adrianS <-
19:11 @<henne> and for what reason? :)
19:11 @<henne> adrianS_: ?
19:11 +<darix> henne: they dont like the idea in general of using bugzilla for it
19:11 +<darix> henne: they think we have better tools for tracking that and are investigating if we should use those.
19:11 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> okey, but now we have none
19:12 @<henne> well how about telling people that? :)
19:12 @<henne> adrianS_: what tools?
19:12 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> not here
19:13 @<henne> he is
19:13  * henne just woke him up
19:13 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> But can't there be a different taskzilla so bugzilla is not messed?
19:13 +<darix> henne: lets put that for another meeting
19:14  * Azerion|B6ZenZuc gives some cofee to adrianS_ , speak up my friend
19:14 +<adrianS_> to avoid a too large overhead, like via bugzilla entries
19:14 +<adrianS_> what is wrong with this ?
19:14 +<cthiel> what kind of "overhead"?
19:15 @<henne> adrianS_: we have _A_LOT_ of AIs
19:15 +<cthiel> (just arrived...)
19:15 @<henne> they tend to get lost
19:15 +<adrianS_> henne: and we should keep them in one list, right ?
19:15 +<adrianS_> henne: where is the problem to keep them in the minutes ?
19:15 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> It is not clear what the progess is. In a zilla it can be done easily
19:15 +<skh> adrianS: bugzilla is a better tool, as I see my bugs every day
19:15 @<henne> adrianS_: someone has to go over the list to see if they are closed
19:15 @<henne> adrianS_: somebody has to track them
19:15 +<adrianS_> The idea of AI's is that you get a report about the result
19:16 +<adrianS_> if you do not want this, yes, you can create bugreports
19:16 +<skh> adrianS: it's a tracking tool which we happen to have and use already, so why not use it for tracking AIs?
19:16 +<adrianS_> henne: this is the job of the minutes tacker
19:16 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> adrianS_, what about a taskzilla for the tasks not bug-related?
19:16 @<henne> adrianS_: there i no such thing. and its a pain in the arse job
19:17 +<adrianS_> adding just another service only for this is not really a good idea
19:17 @<henne> adrianS_: i usually end up with it and get help by good friends because nobody wants to do it
19:17 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> why not?
19:17 @<henne> adrianS_: we have bugzilla. jkust create the "action item" category and be done with it
19:17 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> * adrianS_ : why not?
19:17 +<skh> Azerion: because bugzilla is already there
19:18 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> skh: I know but the name shows the target BUGzilla
19:18 +<skh> lets keep the questions apart: 1. do we want to track AIs in a tool?
19:18 +<skh> 2. is it ok to use bugzilla?
19:18 +<skh> 3. how do we get this list accessible in/from the wiki?
19:18 @<henne> :)
19:18 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> 1.) yes
19:19 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> 2.) Bugzilla should be used for Bugs so why adding tasks to it?
19:19 +<adrianS_> what about a AI page in the wiki ?
19:19 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> To much trouble and work.....
19:19 +<skh> adrianS: are you willing to maintain it?
19:19 +<adrianS_> creating bridges cause lots of work without any new value
19:19 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> I think
19:20 @<henne> also an options but harder to maintain
19:20 +<cthiel> adrianS_: bugzilla is much easier to use / query / sort than a wikipage
19:20  * skh votes: 1. yes, 2.yes, 3. just use a link and be done with it
19:20  * henne follows skh
19:20 +<cthiel> skh: right, that would be the first step -- if we really want to have a nice wiki output, we would need a
                plugin for bugzilla
19:20 +<cthiel> s/bugzilla/wiki
19:21 +<skh> cthiel: then let's live with ugly bugzilla output?
19:21 +<adrianS_> we are not that bored that we should waste time on this
19:21 +<aka_druid_> maybe the wiki page is friendly than the bugzilla for avg joe?
19:21 @<henne> adrianS_: you think i am bored or what?
19:21 +<skh> aka_druid: but not when it isn't up to date
19:21 +<aka_druid_> like some AIs are really non technical, like send email, create a discussion..
19:21 @<henne> adrianS_: if you write the next 10 meeting minutes and maintain the AI page then ok
19:21 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> aka_druid, maybe it is. But bugzilla is better for maintain
19:21 +<localh0rst> cthiel:  or a dirty script to parse the ai bugs and put them in  the wiki
19:21 +<cthiel> skh: the bugzilla output is just fine -- but it's really not a big deal to parse the csv or xml output
                of bugzilla...
19:21 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> so bugzilla input and wike output :)
19:22 +<aka_druid_> skh: I think it will be easier tio keep a wiki page up-to-date then making ppl close their bugs in
19:22 @<henne> GUYS/GALS!!!
19:22 +<skh> cthiel: it obviously is a big deal, or we would already have it
19:22  * cthiel just wrote a script to do this job yesterday (for some different bugzilla stuff)
19:22 @<henne> dont mix the 3 things up again!
19:22 +<cthiel> skh: as soon as we agree on implementing it, it's a matter of like 3-4 hours (incl. testing)
19:23 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> OKey, lets finisch this: using bugzilla, wiki is linked agains stat Automatically
19:23 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> next point
19:23 +<skh> cthiel: and it's an additional wiki patch which might interfere with future updates.
19:24 @<henne> yeah but wiki integration is not the crucial part here
19:24 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> skh, then we have to re-write it?
19:24 @<henne> wiki integration is nice to have
19:24 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> in which language is wike written?
19:24 +<cthiel> skh: it's a plugin, which might break on updates ;)
19:24 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> php>
19:24 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> ?
19:24 @<henne> ARGH
19:24 +<skh> I don't think we need a wiki plugin when a simple f***ing link does the job
19:24 +<cthiel> henne: exactly -- the wiki integration is just optional -- but might help in other places as well
19:25 @<henne> well if its optional why do we even discuss it here?
19:25 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> skh; but withoud the plugin bugzilla is useless
19:25 +<cthiel> skh: yes -- let's just go ahead with the link and be done ;)
19:25 @<henne> start with the non optional things
19:25 +<skh> do we need a new category "action item"?
19:25 @<henne> ok any objections to that?
19:25 @<henne> 1. We create a new category "Action Item"
19:25 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> If you have to ad/remove the wiki-linkto the task then we can use wike for everything :)
19:26 @<henne> 2. We write a wiki page on how we track Action Items
19:26 @<henne> 3. From that wiki page we link to bugzilla
19:26 @<henne> any objections to that?
19:26 +<skh> no. fine. +1
19:26 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> Yes, but you may continue
19:26 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> ;0
19:27 +<cthiel> +1
19:27 @<henne> adrianS_: objections?
19:27 +<adrianS_> I would start with a simple wiki page and look if it really needs more
19:27 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc> -8, but let's continue and discuss it another time if it does not work well
19:27 +<aka_druid_> +1
19:27 +<adrianS_> it is no problem to link to bugzilla for some issues
19:28 +<adrianS_> but maintaining the same list in wiki and in bugzilla is avoidable work
19:28 @<henne> adrianS_: we already have that. the meeting minutes
19:28 @<henne> adrianS_: we are not going to maintain the list twice
19:28 @<henne> adrianS_: we are just going to put a link to bugzilla
19:28 +<adrianS_> we do not have a single AI wiki page where everything is collected
19:28 @<henne> adrianS_: true
19:28 +<skh> yes, because wiki is horrible for keeping lists
19:28 @<henne> but we have only 2
19:29 @<henne> adrianS_: what specific reason do you have to object so strongly against bugzilla?
19:29 +<Azerion|B6ZenZuc>
19:29 +<adrianS_> henne: way more clicks for cleaning up the list or to add information
19:29 @<henne> i know aka_druid_ does because he thinks thatz bugzilla is the wrong tool for non-technical people
19:30 +<skh> adrianS: the list cleans itself up as people close their action items
19:31 +<adrianS_> if people do this
19:31 +<adrianS_> AIs are typical cases, where people forgot to do something
19:31 +<adrianS_> and they remain to forget it
19:31 +<cboltz> If you argue this way, they also don't clean up a wiki page...
19:32 +<skh> it is easier to forget a wiki page maintained by some poor guy than my own bug list
19:32 +<adrianS_> one AI wiki page is used by multiple people, not one
19:32 +<adrianS_> and you have everything in one view, not only one liners
19:32 +<aka_druid_> skh: well, for one taht doesnt work in suse, I dont know if they will see it in that way
19:33 @<henne> ok both are no 100% solutions
19:33 @<henne> we know that
19:33 +<adrianS_> I want just to propose
19:33 +<adrianS_> start with a wiki page
19:34 +<adrianS_> and we can add additional bug entries, if we really need it
19:34 +<adrianS_> and link to them
19:34 @<henne> ok are we willing to that? :)
19:34 @<henne> to do that
19:34 +<skh> adrianS: will you maintain that page?
19:34  * henne wont
19:34 +<adrianS_> it is the job of the minutes taker or that guy who takes an AI
19:34 +<skh> I have done todo lists in wikis before, and I don't want to repeat the experience
19:35 @<henne> adrianS_: that is me! or one of my friends!!!!!!
19:35 +<adrianS_> henne: you can also create bugreports, that will take even more time than maintain one wiki page
19:35 @<henne> adrianS_: thats why i propose to maintain things in bugzilla so i dont have to care about maintaining 
               the AIs
19:35  * cthiel thinks is really dispensable to do the thinks in the wiki that could be done quite easily via bugzilla
19:35 +<adrianS_> henne: but you could delegate that job to someone
19:36 +<cthiel> s/thinks/things/
19:36 @<henne> ok
19:36 +<skh> adrianS: you're proposing a solution that's more work, and not willing to do the work.
19:36 @<henne> yeah
19:36 +<adrianS_> it is way less work for one person,. who is responsible for all entries
19:36 @<henne> dude
19:37 +<adrianS_> keeping one wiki page open in edit mode during the meeting is easy, compared to create multiple
                  bugzilla entries
19:37 @<henne> adrianS_: _maintaining_ not creating
19:37 @<henne> adrianS_: its not about noting it down
19:37 +<adrianS_> and removing multiple lines after reporting back is also less work
19:38 +<adrianS_> henne: as I said before, if you do not want to hear feedback from an AI in the next meeting it is okay
                  for bugzilla
19:38 +<adrianS_> but this is not the purpose of an AI
19:38 +<adrianS_> an AI should get reported back in the next meeting, how do you do this with bugzilla only ?
19:39 +<cthiel> adrianS_: it's quite easy to query for bugs which have been closed within the last N days...
19:39 +<aka_druid_> in the tasks category
19:39 +<skh> adrianS: the AIs need to get tracked between meetings. bugzilla gives enough query options to review them
             for a meeting
19:39 +<adrianS_> cthiel: and than one guy reports them to the channel ? bad workflow ...
19:39 +<adrianS_> an AI means someone is responsible
19:39 +<skh> adrianS: yes. he's assigned the bug.
19:39 +<skh> adrianS: he is present in the meeting. he reports.
19:40 +<skh> adrianS: what is so bad in using a tracking tool?
19:40 +<skh> adrianS: AIs are not something the minute taker should feel responsible for at all, but the one who does
             the job.
19:41 +<turing> why not adapt the wikipedia qs process? Items go into a list by date (day), and marked done when
                appropriate. Old, fully done days (in openSUSE: meeting weeks), are archived.
19:41 +<skh> turing: because bugzilla does the same thing better.
19:41 +<skh> and you get all suse staff with bugzilla automatically.
19:42 +<turing> That point is taken. Also, an AI is typically assinged to a specific person.
19:42 +<adrianS_> well, if you want it by any prize, I do not want to follow this talk anymore and repeat
19:42  * adrianS_ just learned to deal with more than 1000 open bug entries in the past ...
19:43 @<henne> well how about we try 2 weeks with bugzilla
19:43 @<henne> and then 2 weeks with a wiki page
19:43 @<henne> after that month we decide again
19:43 +<cthiel> henne: +1
19:44 +<adrianS_> I can offer to maintain the wiki AI list, if you want
19:44 +<adrianS_> that will take me less time than to deal with the AIs from bugzilla, I am sure ...
19:44 @<henne> ok
19:44 @<henne> if you maintain the AI list then im absolutely fine with it
19:45 @<henne> ok to summarize
19:45 +<cthiel> adrianS_: what's really missing (or not really there yet) in a wiki is the notification stuff that
                bugzilla offers...
19:45 @<henne> We will track action items for 2 weeks in the wiki on a wiki page
19:45 +<cthiel> adrianS_: so it's for example really easy to "ping" someone for an open AI
19:45 +<cthiel> etc...
19:45 @<henne> We will track action items 2 weeks in bugzilla
19:46 @<henne> Action Item adrianS_: create the wiki page and the action-item category in bugzilla
19:46 @<henne> which one first? bugzilla oder wiki?
19:46 +<adrianS_> henne: I am not sure that we can remove a bugzilla category again later ...
19:46 +<adrianS_> henne: wiki please
19:46 @<henne> ok
19:47 @<henne> first wiki then bugzilla
19:47 @<henne> ok next topic

Additional Wiki Languages

19:47 @<henne> Additional Wiki Languages
19:47 @<henne> is pflodo in here?
19:48 @<henne> anyone that has anything to do with this agenda item?
19:48 +<skh> michl maybe?
19:48 @<henne> localh0rst?
19:48 +<michl> just a second
19:48 +<skh> antje?
19:49 +<adrianS_> cn is about to get moved out, but struggles with technical issues
19:49 +<localh0rst> hmm
19:49 +<adrianS_> others are not ready yet, afaik
19:49 +<michl> pflodo is asking the following
19:49 +<michl> #  Are the only requirements for adding a wiki the translation of the pages listed as required on the
                  OpenSUSE Translation Guide, and a willing maintainer?
19:49 +<michl> # On an ongoing basis when a translation team has translated the minimum required pages, what is the
                 expected time frame of wiki creation? Can it be a monthly or bi-monthly task to create wikis for
                 languages that meet the criteria?
19:49 +<michl> # Is posting to opensuse-wiki the correct place to request a new wiki (as currently stated in the guide),
                 or should bugzilla be used?
19:49 +<michl> #1 yes
19:50 +<michl> on the time frame for setting up a new wiki perhaps darix can give an answer
19:50 +<darix> oO
19:51 +<darix> michl: if the content is complete
19:51 +<darix> 1d
19:51 +<darix> if i get hold of jared.:)
19:51 +<adrianS_> well, 1 week to get synced this with Jared
19:51 +<darix> but atm i have to debug a charset problem. :|
19:51 +<michl> so bi-weekly is a good time frame as it gives some time if we're facing delay
19:51 +<darix> adrianS_: if the people arent coming with "we have this content done. can we have the wiki. you said it
               will be done tomorrow"
19:52 +<skh> it is not one day.
19:52  * cthiel is off again -- bye folks
19:52 +<darix> adrianS_: just a pre-warning so we can get jared in sync
19:52 +<skh> requesting a new wiki in staging - 2 days
19:52 +<adrianS_> darix: we can prepare it internaly, but we need 1 week to sync it out
19:52 +<darix> skh: i saif when the content is done. :)
19:52 +<skh> entering content - 1 week
19:52 +<darix> skh: *sigh*
19:52 +<skh> darix: the question was from request to launch
19:53 +<localh0rst> nope
19:53 +<darix> ah
19:53 +<skh> synching out: bi-weekly or monthly, whateber is done by the time
19:53 +<darix> 2w
19:53 +<skh> so, yes, 2 weeks minimum, without taking into account all practical experience
19:54 +<skh> which would suggest a month
19:54 +<skh> localhost: nope to what?
19:56 +<localh0rst> skh: nevermind
19:56 @<henne> ok
19:56 @<henne> anything else on this topic?
19:56 +<michl> next question was if opensuse-wiki is the right place for requesting new languages?
19:56 +<michl> yes, it is
19:56 +<skh> who is responsible for coordinating the new language requests that have come up?
19:57 +<michl> Antje is
19:57 +<skh> last I know it was antje, but I don't see anything from her
19:57 +<skh> does she need help?
19:57 +<localh0rst> anyone read the workflow i wrote? ;-)
19:57 +<adrianS_> actually, localhorst took over meanwhile
19:57 +<michl> Antje will be in Nuremberg next week
19:58 +<michl> and asked already for a meeting to get things adjusted
19:58 +<skh> ok.
19:58 +<localh0rst> michl: how long?
19:58 +<michl> how long what?
19:58 @<henne> guys
19:58 +<localh0rst> how long will she be there?
19:58 +<localh0rst> next week is cebit .,.,
19:58 +<michl> Tuesday coming
19:58 +<michl> Monday leaving
19:58 +<darix> michl: cool!
19:59 +<michl> but I don't know if she is all time in house
19:59 +<localh0rst> k, so make the meeting on friday if possible
19:59 +<michl> next topic?

CDB/HCL - hardware database efforts

19:59 @<henne> CDB/HCL - hardware database efforts
19:59 @<henne> the_dude: now
19:59 +<the_dude> hah
19:59 +<the_dude> ok, i'
20:00 +<the_dude> m just curious about how it gets updated, and what the community can do to help keep it current
20:00 +<the_dude> there was a period of time where it was quite useful
20:00 +<adrianS_> the CDB is not maintained atm
20:00 @<henne> the cdb you mean right?
20:01 +<adrianS_> there is a plan to revive it under the umbrella
20:01 +<the_dude> ok, i'd be glad to help if i can
20:01 +<adrianS_> Stefan Behlert want to do this in the next free time
20:01 +<adrianS_> however, that will not be in the next month for sure
20:01 +<the_dude> fine
20:01 @<henne> i hope he talks to the HCL peple....
20:01 +<skh> so far I think contributing to the existing wiki pages would be really helpful
20:01 +<adrianS_> he knows about in general
20:02 +<skh> henne: we should tell him to do so again
20:02 +<the_dude> ok, so bring up again in a couple months?
20:02 @<henne> the_dude: in the mean time you should help the HCL people
20:02 +<adrianS_> there is no promise yet
20:03 +<the_dude> ok
20:03 +<adrianS_> but the laptop team does need something like this for their work, so there is hope
20:03 @<henne> so should we call it a day?
20:03 @<henne> or anything else
20:03 +<localh0rst> i have something ...
20:03 @<henne> ok ill have to leave
20:04 @<henne> bye peepz
20:04 +<michl> call it a day
20:04 +<skh> bye henne


20:04 +<localh0rst> michl, cthiel and /me are at cebit, visit us :-)
20:04 +<skh> localhorst: you could announce that on the mailing list as well
20:04 +<localh0rst> k, will do
20:04 +<skh> anything else?
20:06 +<skh> well, then - thank you for participating
20:06 +<skh> see you again in two weeks.
--- Log closed Tue Mar 07 20:06:45 2006