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2006-01-24-status-meeting-transcript

Şuraya atla: kullan, ara

This is the transcript of the 2006-01-24-status-meeting.

Agenda

--- Log opened Tue Jan 24 18:00:20 2006
18:00 @<henne> ok
18:00 @<henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Status Meeting!
18:00 @<henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE.
18:00 @<henne> Some technicality's:
18:00 @<henne> This channel is moderated during the time of the meeting.
18:00 @<henne> But it has relaxed moderation set so the operator (henne) can see what youre writing.
               So if you have a question or remark
18:01 @<henne> just write it. henne will give you a voice and you can repeat your question for everyone.
18:01 @<henne> The topics of this meeting are:
18:01 @<henne> o General overview
18:01 @<henne> o Mailinglist migration
18:01 @<henne> o FOSDEM overview
18:01 @<henne> o Build Services status
18:01 @<henne> o Bugzilla voting
18:01 @<henne> o SDB import
18:01 @<henne> o Internationalized wikis
18:01 @<henne> o Official forum
18:01 @<henne> o Doc server
18:01 @<henne> o Better wiki search
18:01 @<henne> o 'openSUSE'<->'SUSE Linux' confusion, future naming of "OSS" & "Eval" products
18:01 @<henne> general overview i just did :)

Mailinglist migration

18:02 @<henne> so lets go on with mailinglist migration
18:02 @<henne> oh thats me too
18:02 @<henne> alright
18:02 @<henne> we are moving away from ezmlm and qmail on lists.opensuse.org
18:03 @<henne> to mlmmj and postfix
18:03 @<henne> that gives us the chance to change some things
18:03 @<henne> and while we are doing that we will migrate some SUSE internal mailinglists to opensuse.org
18:03 @<henne> we saw that for the past 5 months we changed a lot except the way suse developers communicated
18:04 @<henne> so were going to change that
18:05 @<henne> ok let me sort the questions
18:05 +<houghi> Better question: Is there a webinterface for mlmmj like mailman has for subscribe and unsubscribe?
18:05 @<henne> houghi: repeat your question
18:05 @<henne> houghi: there is a webinterface to manage it yes
18:05 @<henne> houghi: but i dont think we will enable this
18:06 +<houghi> Why not?
18:06  * henne waitet for that question 8)
18:06 @<henne> well first the webinterface is very basic and as far as i know it does not allow user interaction
18:07 @<henne> its only for the list admin
18:07 @<henne> and secondly i dont think its needed
18:07 +<skh> henne: please let me know your timeline, I would like to help with internal communication of this change.
18:07 @<henne> houghi: does that answer your question?
18:08 +<houghi> Yes, it does (althogh I would rather ghave seen it differently)
18:08 @<henne> skh: well timeframe
18:09 +<cthiel> henne: you might want to take that discussion to the mlmmj list, as this might help to create/improve a 
                user-webinterface for mlmmj
18:09 @<henne> i have to coordinate with our sysadmins
18:09 @<henne> cthiel: good idea
18:09 +<cthiel> s/henne/houghi/
18:09 @<henne> skh: the box is ready
18:09 @<henne> skh: we just need to put it into the DMZ and then we can start hosting lists there
18:10 @<henne> skh: so my best guess is end of this week
18:10 +<skh> henne: so we should warn people ;-)
18:10 @<henne> hm
18:10 @<henne> no not really. they shouldnt note the difference
18:10 @<henne> or do you mean migratet suse people?
18:10 +<skh> henne: suse people
18:10 +<skh> it is a major change how we work, after all
18:11 @<henne> yes sure
18:11 +<AJaeger> henne_log: Start with one mailing list for stress testing?
18:11 @<henne> AJaeger: stress testing is not needed
18:11 +<skh> so let's talk to them now. I didn't know how far you're with the box, but when it's ready now,
             I'll prepare some announcement
18:11 @<henne> AJaeger: mlmmj is pounded on by gentoo already :)
18:11 @<henne> skh: ok
18:12 +<skh> we should allow for a few days of internal discussion to answer questions.
18:12 +<skh> thanks.
18:12 +<darix> AJaeger: mlmmj drives all lists at gentoo.org
18:12 @<henne> Actin Item skh/henne: prepare some announcement for list migration
18:12 @<henne> all the people that asked for list setup details
18:12 @<henne> like list headers or stuff like that
18:12 +<skh> henne: is the question where to send stuff that can't go public resolved?
18:13 @<henne> we will make this transition as easy as possible. so yes mostly all headers will stay the same
18:13 @<henne> skh: no not yet
18:13 +<skh> (please understand, these were internal lists. we will continue to have non-public topics)
18:13 +<AJaeger> henne_log: So, my procmailrc should continue to work?
18:13 +<skh> henne: so what are the next steps there?
18:14 @<henne> AJaeger: exactly. you as a user of a list shouldnt notice anything
18:14 @<henne> skh: we have to make a risk assessment per list
18:14 @<henne> skh: so i will do one for packagers
18:14 @<henne> (our internal packager mailinglist)
18:14 +<skh> henne: I could help...
18:15 @<henne> skh: ok
18:15 @<henne> Action Item skh/henne: risk assesment for packagers
18:15 @<henne> the_dude: please repeat your question
18:15 +<the_dude> will we have searchable maillist archives?
18:16 @<henne> i hate you :)
18:16 +<the_dude> :)
18:16 @<henne> probably not. we still will use hypermail
18:16 +<the_dude> i take that as a no
18:16 +<the_dude> sigh
18:16 @<henne> maybe we get a google box
18:16 @<henne> adrianS: didnt you say something like that?
18:17 +<the_dude> what about moderation for larger volume lists?
18:17 +<darix> henne: i have some other suggestions for mailing list archives
18:17 +<darix> but i would like to show them to you first
18:17 +<adrianS> I would like to check again when IS&T wants to move the ml servers to provo before we invest too much here
18:17 @<henne> the_dude: uh
18:17 @<henne> adrianS: what?
18:18 +<the_dude> lol
18:18 +<skh> henne: I think adrian meant work on the archives, not on the migration itself
18:18 +<adrianS> yes
18:18 @<henne> the_dude: define moderation. like moderating each message?
18:18 @<henne> ah ok
18:18 +<skh> henne: all is good ;-)
18:18 +<the_dude> yes, the thread digress into ranting and non suse related bs
18:18 +<the_dude> makes the lists useless at time
18:18 @<henne> Action Item adrianS: check again when IS&T wants to move the ml servers to provo for the archives
18:19 @<henne> the_dude: phew. we should take that to the list
18:19 +<the_dude> fine
18:19 @<henne> ok can we stop discussion about mailinglists now and move on?
18:19 +<the_dude> yes
18:19 +<skh> +1
18:19 @<henne> alright :)

FOSDEM overview

18:19 @<henne> next topic: FOSDEM overview
18:20 @<henne> michl: thats your part
18:20 +<cthiel> henne: that's something for me...
18:20 +<cthiel> As most of you guys already know, we & the openSUSE project will be
18:20 +<cthiel> participating at FOSDEM with an openSUSE 'DevRoom' (Developer Room) and a
18:20 +<cthiel> small booth.
18:20 +<cthiel> ...
18:20 +<cthiel> The sixth Free and Open source Software Developers' European Meeting
18:20 +<cthiel> (commonly known as FOSDEM [1] (http://www.fosdem.org/)) will take place
18:20 +<cthiel> during the last week-end (25&26) of February 2006 in the city of Brussels,
18:20 +<cthiel> Belgium. It's an annual 2-day event hosting talks, tutorials, and booth for
18:20 +<cthiel> the free software/open source community. It is organized by volunteers at
18:20 +<cthiel> the Université Libre de Bruxelles in Belgium. Access to all parts of FOSDEM
18:20 +<cthiel> is free of charge (but donations and sponsors are welcome to help fund the
18:20 +<cthiel> event).
18:20 +<cthiel> For the preliminary schedule please visit http://www.opensuse.org/FOSDEM
18:20 +<cthiel> To get further details on FOSDEM, please refer to http://www.fosdem.org/
18:20 +<cthiel> We are all looking forward to seeing you at FOSDEM!
18:20 +<cthiel> Are there any questions regarding openSUSE @ FOSDEM?
18:20 @<henne> yes i have one
18:21 +<cthiel> go ahead
18:21 @<henne> what could we all do better next time so not only suse staff is talking?
18:21 @<henne> is there anything we could have done better?
18:22 +<cthiel> henne: that's a great questions, let's open it up for comments!
18:22 +<houghi> henne: Perhaps wait for evaluation of this year and see who is willing to do what. openSUSE is still very young.
18:22 +<yaloki> as I already stated on the mailing-list, I think it's pretty normal that talks are exclusively from SUSE staff for 
                this first time. the community involvement is just starting.
18:22 @<henne> so nothing.
18:22 @<henne> cool :
18:22 @<henne> )
18:23 +<yaloki> next year will hopefully be very different, but there wasn't really something else to expect for this one
18:23 +<cthiel> henne: let's put up an action item to evaluate our FOSDEM participation in one of the next meetings...
18:23 +<skh> I'd also say give people a chance to work out how they can contribute when we actually allow them to and then ask again.
18:23 +<dirk> henne: perhaps asking for tops for the status meeting from the community for the next meeting
18:23 @<henne> dirk: what?
18:23 +<skh> dirk: talk on FOSDEM was the question
18:23 @<henne> yeah
18:23 +<skh> dirk; not here.
18:24 @<henne> Action Item cthiel/yaloki:  evaluate our FOSDEM participation after FOSDEM
18:24 @<henne> ok
18:24 @<henne> next topic?
18:24 @<henne> no
18:24 +<yaloki> no other questions?
18:24 +<cthiel> henne: sure, if there are no more questions... let's go..
18:25 @<henne> cboltz: please again
18:25 +<cboltz> I asked for recording the FOSDEM talks (audio/video) some time ago to make them available for people that can't take 
                part. Is this sure now?
18:25 +<cthiel> cboltz: we will try to do at least audio recording of the talks...
18:25 @<henne> cthiel?
18:25 @<henne> ok
18:26 @<henne> ok next topic

Build Service status

18:26 @<henne> o Build Services status
18:26 @<henne> mls_: hows the backend comming? :)
18:26 +<adrianS> let me paste a short overview first
18:26 +<adrianS> We do work on the public build service atm with two teams.
18:26 +<adrianS> One team is working on the frontend and one on the backend.
18:26 +<adrianS> An overview can get found here: http://www.opensuse.org/Build_Service_Team
18:26 +<adrianS> Some hardware should be in place, so it should be browsable (read-only)
18:26 +<adrianS> at that time. The plan is to open some accounts for people how are asking
18:26 +<adrianS> for an account. But we may are not be able to make it really public at
18:26 +<adrianS> that point of time, because not all hardware will be in place.
18:26 +<adrianS> The build service should be able to build addon packages for various
18:26 +<adrianS> distributions at that point of time. But we will not be able to host
18:26 +<adrianS> distribution core packages. That will be the next step.
18:26 +<adrianS> "at that time" means at FOSDEM ;)
18:27 +<mls_> My status: dependency expansion works, new specfile parsing is almost done.
18:27 @<henne> mls_: could you elaborate on dependency expansion?
18:28 @<henne> tell what you did :)
18:28 @<henne> mls_?
18:28 +<cthiel> henne: ... typing.
18:28 +<mls_> Well, you probably all now that currently the build environment is setup by looking at a "neededforbuild" line.
18:29 +<mls_> In the old days you had to put all packages in it that were needed for the build
18:30 @<henne> yes we know :)
18:30 +<mls_> now, the system also pulls in all packages that are needed to make the specified packages work, i.e. it looks at the 
              Requires of the packages and checks what packages provide them
18:30 +<mls_> There's also a blacklist to remove dependencies that are not needed for building
18:31 +<mls_> We want to keep the number of packages as small as possible.
18:31 +<yaloki> good! (was one of my personal gripes about neededforbuild) :)
18:31 +<mls_> Next step is the migration from neededforbuild to BuildRequires.
18:31 @<henne> cool
18:32 +<Riggwelter> does the new system generate the neededforbuild lines automagically?  That's how it sounds
18:32 +<mls_> The main advantage will be that you can use all the normal rpm %if statements, so you can have arch/project dependent 
              BuildRequires.
18:32 +<darix> Riggwelter: neededforbuild is dead
18:32 +<yaloki> mls_: excellent
18:32 +<Riggwelter> s/neededforbuild/BuildRequires :)
18:32 @<henne> mls_: any ETA on the new build tool?
18:32 +<mls_> Well, you still have to specify some needed packages, but the list is much smaller.
18:32 @<henne> codename uberbuild ;)
18:33 +<Riggwelter> rock hard!
18:33 +<darix> Riggwelter: no. it will only generate the list what needs to be installed at buildtime.
18:33 +<skh> Riggwelter; you only need to name packages you need, not the dependencies of those.
18:33 +<mls_> I have a script that calculates the minimal requires, we'll run it on all of our packages.
18:33 +<skh> which can be a PITA, so this is cool.
18:33  * Riggwelter smiles
18:33 +<yaloki> so basically, it is computing the transient dependencies, right ?
18:34 +<yaloki> i.e. those that are not directly referenced but needed anyway
18:34 +<mls_> Yes, more or less. Yes, y2pm already did that, but we now have a blacklist and some other ways of influencing which 
              package gets used.
18:34 +<bill-barriere> but am not sure i understand what this does quite right cant y2pmbuild alredy calculate all those
18:34 +<mls_> And the really new part is the specfile parsing.
18:35 @<henne> bill-barriere: not all of it. it cant parse the specfile right
18:35 @<henne> bill-barriere: like %if's around BuildRequires etc.
18:35 +<yaloki> mls_: is there some possibility of having that spec-parsing part as a standalone tool/lib/something ? that would be 
                highly interesting to write other tools
18:35 +<mls_> And y2pmbuild doesn't produce so many error messages ;-)
18:36 +<mls_> It'll be part of an autobuild perl module, so yes, other tools may also use it.
18:36 +<bill-barriere> yeah of course if i can use that thing on my server too that be just great
18:36 @<henne> ok
18:36 +<yaloki> ok, thanks
18:37 @<henne> schiele: please again
18:37 +<schiele> Is it now definitive that the build server code will go fully open source?
18:37 +<yaloki> question: any progress/information on the "opensourceness" of the build system ?
18:37 +<skh> ;-)
18:37 +<yaloki> oh, lol
18:37 +<mls_> But be warned: it is trimmed for speed, it's not a full parser. Only rpm can parse specfiles correctly...
18:37 +<skh> adrian: you or me?
18:37 @<henne> heh. 2 idiots one thought
18:37 +<adrianS> schiele: we need a final approval for that
18:37 +<Riggwelter> I have to run in a short time, so can I just ask something else on the topic of the build services?
18:37 +<adrianS> schiele: we are in good hope, but we can't promise it yet
18:37 +<adrianS> schiele: the frontends (including the web frontend) will be open source for sure
18:38 @<henne> Riggwelter: sure shoot
18:38 +<Riggwelter> Thanks.  Will the build services mean that we third-party packagers can use the servers to build on architectures 
                    we have no physical access to?
18:38 +<mls_> All the stuff I talked about is also used in the "build" package, so they will be open source.
18:38 +<yaloki> Riggwelter: yes
18:38 +<skh> Riggwelter: that's one of the main features, yes
18:38 +<adrianS> Riggwelter: yes, but that does not depend on that question ;)
18:38 +<Riggwelter> adrianS: lol :)
18:38 +<schiele> Why did you decide to open the build server code only when you have completed the first version? Wouldn't it have 
                 been a smarter move to open in an eraly (incomplete) state to have external people better involved? Instead of this 
                 one-way "wait what we have done behind the curtain until we show".
18:38 +<adrianS> Riggwelter: however, we will only have x86 and x86_64 in the next month
18:39 +<skh> schiele: there will be enough to do, believe me
18:39 +<skh> it's not that we'll be feature complete on fosdem
18:39 +<bill-barriere> schiele, novell got corporate view
18:39 @<henne> ok next topic?
18:39 +<adrianS> schiele: a Novell comite needs to approve that we are allowed to open source it
18:40 +<schiele> Ok, but the parts that are already clear to be open sourced.
18:40 +<Riggwelter> adrianS: that's still one more arch than I have ;)  (but why no S/390?)
18:40 +<yaloki> Riggwelter: you don't want that lol
18:40 +<darix> Riggwelter: noone wants gnome on that
18:40 +<Riggwelter> darix: lol :)
18:40 +<AJaeger> darix: Neither KDE ;-)
18:40 +<adrianS> Riggwelter: we do not have that many s390 build power either
18:41 @<henne> stop chatting please
18:41 +<Riggwelter> anyway, got to run, enjoy the rest of the meeting guys
18:41 +<cthiel> henne: next topic?
18:41 +<adrianS> Riggwelter: but we will discuss that with IBM later, I suppose
18:41 @<henne> cthiel: no
18:41 @<henne> question from CzP
18:41  * adrianS knows koffice bugreports for s390 ...
18:42 @<henne> CzP: please repeat your question for everyone
18:42 +<CzP> Will you have PPC support on the build servers later on?
18:42 +<CzP> If yes, when?
18:42 +<adrianS> CzP: it is on our roadmap, but I can't guarantee this and I can't tell you a date yet
18:43 +<adrianS> not in the next 4 month, I think
18:43 @<henne> CzP: does that answer your question?
18:43 +<mls_> It's only a hardware issue...
18:43 +<CzP> Yes.
18:43 +<yaloki> ppc would be highly desired though
18:43 +<AJaeger> CzP: For each architecture, we need build machines and disk space...
18:44 +<CzP> If hw issue, I'll try to get machines...
18:45 +<cboltz> What about building not-so-legal packages like MPlayer or xine?
18:45 @<henne> ok
18:45 @<henne> question from soeren
18:45 +<yaloki> but basically this doesn't void my point about having a distributed build architecture, so maybe we could discuss this 
                anyway (e.g. @FOSDEM)
18:45 +<soeren> will there be some security-check for the packages built, to ensure the trustworthy of the packages? Maybe a rating 
                system  or so..?
18:45 +<cthiel> yaloki: good point!
18:45 +<adrianS> CzP: can we discuss that via PM ?
18:46 +<adrianS> CzP: could you mail me your address to adrian@suse.de please ?
18:46 +<skh> soeren: yes, we have already thought about this.
18:46 @<henne> oh
18:46 +<crispin_> I have done a lot of research in rating the trust-worthyness of software in a project called Sardonix
18:46 +<adrianS> cboltz: we need to remove them, when they appear
18:47 +<crispin_> creating an AppArmor profile for an application makes it much easier to trust :)
18:47 +<skh> soeren: actually, the only thing we can assure is that the binary rpms are built from the source that's on the server.
18:47 +<skh> soeren: because we can't and don't want to check submissions manually
18:47 +<skh> soeren: more trust may come from a trust system between packagers
18:47 @<henne> that would be a cool thing to sort out at FOSDEM
18:47 +<skh> soeren: and from a rating system.
18:47 +<skh> henne: ok.
18:47 +<adrianS> soeren: in the end, you will need to decide on your own, if you trust the packer
18:48 +<skh> ideas are welcome. ;-)
18:48 +<soeren> ok
18:48 +<adrianS> soeren: so we need to rate packagers later and to give them some trust level
18:48 +<mls_> Let's discuss this at FOSDEM, ok?
18:48 @<henne> yeah
18:48 @<henne> Action Item everybody: Discuss rating and trust system at FOSDEM
18:49 +<skh> (or on the lists?)
18:49 +<cthiel> skh: both ;)
18:49 +<crispin_> really, having done both, AppArmor profiling works better than trust ratings
18:49 @<henne> crispin_: its about packaging
18:49 @<henne> crispin_: not running applications
18:50 @<darix> crispin_: doing profiles for any desktop app out there ... any possible weird network setup ... you know how easily 
               that can screw. :p
18:50 @<henne> crispin_: so do you trust packages that are build by user henne on the buildserver. stuff like that
18:50 @<henne> crispin_: trust in that context means do you install it or not
18:50 +<crispin_> so it is trust against mistakes rather than trust whether the package is a Trojan Horse?
18:51 @<darix> crispin_: apparmor cant protect against %pre/%post scripts e.e.g
18:51 +<crispin_> correct: you would need to profile RPM, and that would be painful :)
18:51 +<adrianS> crispin_: it doesn't matter in the end ..
18:51 @<darix> crispin_: impossible
18:51 @<henne> ok can we discuss this at FOSDEM?
18:51 @<darix> next?
18:51 +<skh> crispin: you know you're welcome to the opensuse dev room while you're at fosdem ;-)
18:51 @<darix> henne: sure
18:51 @<henne> NEXT TOPIC
18:51 +<cthiel> ok, I'm ready ;)

Bugzilla Voting

18:51 @<henne> o Bugzilla voting
18:52 +<cthiel> We have had requests to enable Voting in bugzilla in the past. After
18:52 +<cthiel> evaluating the various concerns that have been raised internally, we will
18:52 +<cthiel> eventually enable voting in bugzilla for SUSE Linux. Having said that, there
18:52 +<cthiel> is one thing that needs to be clear: Voting in Bugzilla will be used for
18:52 +<cthiel> orientation purposes only -- not for specific prioritisation / resource
18:52 @<henne> go paste ahead
18:52 +<cthiel> allocation. My guess would be to have voting in place by the end of this
18:52 +<cthiel> week or early next week.
18:52 +<cthiel> Oh, I would like to bring up one question in this regard: How many votes
18:52 +<cthiel> should a user be able to place? (Note: once a bug has been fixed, the user
18:52 +<cthiel> is able to recyle his vote.)
18:52 +<skh> how many are used in KDE bugzilla?
18:52 +<skh> they have the system working ok, I heard
18:52 +<cthiel> skh: I was about to ask the kde people on that ;)
18:52 @<darix> *pokes dirk*
18:53 +<skh> coolo told me. It wasn't many, like 10 or so
18:53 +<adrianS> KDE team just left for bowling ....
18:53 @<henne> lol
18:53 +<skh> matz guesses 10 too
18:53 @<henne> slackers
18:53 @<henne> o
18:53 @<henne> k
18:53 +<cthiel> skh: I guess we can try to play around with that... but 10 sounds good.
18:53 @<henne> action item cthiel: find out how many votes a user has in the KDE bugzilla
18:53 +<skh> I'd like to comment on the voting.
18:54 @<henne> is everybody ok that we use the same amount?
18:54 @<henne> skh: go ahead
18:54 +<skh> I hope that we don't raise false expectations.
18:54 +<skh> It is valuable and valued feedback, but this doesn't mean that our packagers do as you tell them.
18:55 +<cthiel> yes -- that needs to be very clear.
18:55 +<skh> you're bright people so I assume you probably don't expect that
18:55 +<smb> IMHO getting the exact number of votes initially isn't important, as presumably that can be tuned if its too high or too 
             low.
18:55 @<henne> smb: too true
18:55 +<skh> but please don't start flaming our packagers when your favourite enhancement doesn't get it
18:56  * henne is flamefest
18:56 +<skh> (though when we never fix high-voted bugs we _will_ start and think)
18:56 @<henne> ok next topic?
18:56 @<henne> erm

SDB wiki import

18:57 @<henne> o  SDB import
18:57 +<skh> ;-)
18:57 +<adrianS> SDB import is prepared but needs to wait for finishing the next point
18:57 @<henne> SDB == support database btw
18:57 +<adrianS> Michael Gross and Martin Lasarsch have prepare all scripts and tools to do it, after the i18n wiki is running
18:57 +<localhorst> the html -> wiki port is done, we didnt converted old and obsolete articles.
18:57 +<localhorst> Languages are the same from the old SDB: .de .en .fr .es. As soon as we enable
18:57 +<localhorst> the interwikis (see next point on agenda) you can access the SDB on opensuse.org.
18:57 +<localhorst> We will have a namespace (SDB:) for the SDB, so searching is easier. Everbody
18:57 +<localhorst> with a login can edit the pages or make new ones (hey, it's a wiki! :-) ). A
18:57 +<localhorst> howto/styleguide will be available (already finished).
18:58 @<henne> cool
18:58 +<localhorst> so as soon interwiki is up we will have sdb online
18:58 @<darix> bill-barriere: shoot
18:59 +<bill-barriere> but you say il8n here isnt the SDB in german only ?
18:59 +<skh> no.
18:59 +<localhorst> no,
18:59 +<cthiel> no
18:59 +<cthiel> ;)
18:59 @<darix> bill-barriere: no. all languages mentioned above are supported
18:59  * bill-barriere hide
18:59 +<localhorst> .de and .en are nearly the same amount of articles
18:59 @<henne> ok
18:59 @<henne> so what about Internationalized wikis?
19:00 @<henne> when is that horse done?
19:00 @<henne> darix?
19:00 @<darix> technically we are set ... imho
19:00 +<adrianS> okay, first we all do feel ashamed that this takes so long.
19:00 +<adrianS> The current state is that we finaly solved all technical issues (yesterday). We do hope to fix the content this week 
                 and go online maybe
19:00 +<adrianS> on thursday. We will not go online on friday, because not everybody is
19:00 +<adrianS> online on weekend in case of some emergency.
19:00 +<adrianS> I hope localhorst can help with the content tomorrow ;)
19:00 @<henne> that means this thursday?
19:00 +<adrianS> in best case, yes
19:01 +<michl> I doubt thursday
19:01 @<henne> cboltz has a question for the SDB
19:01 +<adrianS> depends how it look alike on thursday
19:01 @<henne> cboltz: please repeat
19:01 +<cboltz> What do you mean with "we didnt converted old and obsolete articles."? Did you manually sort them out or just by date?
19:01 +<adrianS> michl: don't destroy our hopes ;)
19:01 +<michl> just being realistic
19:02 +<skh> adrian: you know our thoughts on that, I think ;-)
19:02 +<localhorst> cboltz: we sorted the out ... you will not find stuff about nvida and 6.3 in the wiki :-)
19:02 +<skh> let's call it the big learning experience.
19:02 +<bill-barriere> well going back too 7.0 or even 8.2 isnt really necessary
19:02 +<skh> for all of us
19:02 +<adrianS> no world domination is possible by being realistic ;)
19:02 +<localhorst> cboltz: all manual
19:02 @<henne> stop chatting
19:02  * henne cracks the whip
19:02 +<cboltz> OK :-)

Internationalized wikis

19:02 @<darix> houghi: your turn
19:03 +<houghi> I see the international items on e.g. http://www.opensuse.org/DE-Download. Is there a plan to put it on e.g.  
                de.opensuse.org/Download ?
19:03 +<skh> yes.
19:03 @<darix> houghi: most likely yes.
19:03 +<adrianS> houghi: yes
19:03 +<skh> we will integrate the work already done on the public wiki
19:03 @<henne> everything else would be really mean...
19:03 +<skh> though we won't have all languages at first.
19:03 +<adrianS> houghi: we will lock the page short before doing the migration
19:03 +<skh> so TR-* will stay as it is for now.
19:04 +<skh> as an example.
19:04 +<cthiel> skh: but TR is a candidate for the next round of intl wikis
19:04 +<skh> that's the next batch planned for - well, after this one.
19:04 +<skh> as is RO
19:04  * henne has a question
19:04 +<michl> we need for each languaga a basic set of pages and a maintainer
19:05 +<skh> henne: please;-)
19:05 @<henne> can someone please make a page about this in the wiki?
19:05 +<localhorst> we are working on it
19:05 @<darix> AI henne ... make a page about this
19:05 +<cthiel> henne: well, it's a wiki -- so you are free to create it ;)
19:05 @<henne> so we can canalize the translation efforts?
19:05 +<skh> I thought there was one already
19:05 @<henne> cthiel: i cant. im fully booked
19:05 @<henne> any takers?
19:06 +<localhorst> im already on it
19:06 @<henne> oh ok
19:06 @<henne> neato
19:06 +<localhorst> with frank and bg
19:06 @<henne> question from cboltz
19:06 +<cboltz> Will DE-Download redirect do de.opensuse.org/Download when the migration is done?
19:06 +<adrianS> cboltz: I hope so
19:06 +<skh> darix?
19:07 +<adrianS> cboltz: but the link to DE-Download will disappear for sure
19:07 @<darix> skh: just a redirect ... and for content questions look at cthiel and michl and localhorst
19:07 @<darix> :)
19:07 +<adrianS> so I do not see a big problem
19:07 +<cthiel> darix: don't blame me ;)
19:07 @<henne> ok
19:07 @<henne> any more questions or can we go over to the next topic?
19:08 +<skh> next, please
19:08 +<michl> next topic

Official Webforum

19:08 +<michl> Official forum
19:08 @<henne> Next Topic:  Official forum
19:08 @<darix> michl: wait for the moderator
19:08 @<henne> adrianS?
19:08 +<adrianS> is it me ?
19:08 +<cthiel> adrianS: yes
19:09 +<adrianS> okay, we waited for some official forum from Novell
19:09 +<adrianS> It does not look alike that we will get it soon
19:09 +<adrianS> on the other hand we do not want to use man power here to work on it
19:09 +<adrianS> because we do not want to slow down any work on the build service or on the SLES
19:10 +<adrianS> declaring an external hosted forum is also not something what we want to do for now
19:10 +<adrianS> because the domain could be simply selled to someone
19:10 +<adrianS> that just happened with www.kde-forum.org
19:10 +<adrianS> so I do not see a solution for this in the near future
19:11 +<the_dude> the channel would be web based, like a bbs?
19:11 +<adrianS> yes
19:11 +<adrianS> phpBBS would be a usable solution, I am told
19:11 @<darix> adrianS: no way
19:12 +<cthiel> adrianS: fud forum...
19:12 +<cthiel> adrianS: or phpBB.
19:12 +<skh> it is also a question how important this is for you.
19:12 @<henne> details
19:12 +<adrianS> oh ;)
19:12 @<darix> cthiel: we dont need to discuss this now
19:12 +<the_dude> not very
19:12 +<cthiel> darix: right ;)
19:12 @<darix> cthiel: and a forum is more than just installing some software somewhere
19:12 @<henne> we need to discuss HOW we can get on officla forum
19:12 @<darix> aka_druid: ask
19:12 @<henne> not what software it runs
19:12 +<adrianS> I would not mind to host such a system, but I do not see anyone really spending time on it atm
19:12 +<skh> because we can change our minds regarding manpower when our community cries out for an official web forum
19:13 +<skh> but I don't see that many cries.
19:13 +<aka_druid> adrianS: its more like a suggestion. For all you've said, at eladt by now supporting the big forums that already 
                   exist could be a better solution
19:13 +<the_dude> novell does not like the idea? or has other priorities?
19:13 +<aka_druid> they are already there, working. Any new forum would be redundant.
19:13 +<skh> the_dude: don't ask
19:13 +<skh> sorry.
19:13  * the_dude relurks
19:13 +<adrianS> the_dude: skh will fly to them and find out ;)
19:13 @<henne> houghi has an idea!
19:13 +<skh> it's a mix of many aspects ;-)
19:13 +<houghi> If you just link e.g. forum.opensuse.org with DNS, the domain can't be sold.
19:13 @<henne> tada
19:14 +<adrianS> houghi: true, but it could
19:14 +<adrianS> suddenly disappear or misused
19:14 @<darix> houghi: you know ... we already did some kind of DOS on some sites
19:14 +<skh> then we link to something else
19:14 +<aka_druid> cthiel: sorry, I have to say, using phpbb is like writing "hack me" in the door
19:14 @<darix> houghi: like ftp.gwdg.de with beta releases
19:14 @<henne> then we can redirect DNS
19:14 @<darix> just declaring something as official and redirect can have bad effects on the forums
19:14 @<darix> =)
19:14 +<skh> but this would mean either bledding one of the existing suse community forums (and maybe alienating the others)
19:14 +<cthiel> aka_druid: we have apparmor... ;)
19:14 +<houghi> I understand it only takes away one aspect
19:14 +<skh> or setting up yet another suse forum...
19:14 +<aka_druid> heh
19:15 @<darix> cthiel: NO WAY. get that?
19:15 @<henne> aka_druid, cthiel take that to a PM
19:15 +<skh> no implementation please
19:15 +<skh> this is irrelevant here
19:15 +<cthiel> darix: calm down... ;)
19:15 @<henne> i find that DNS idead neato
19:15 @<henne> -d
19:15 +<skh> s/bledding/blessing/ above
19:15 @<henne> is there any forum owner in here?
19:15 +<aka_druid> darix: thats what I was talkin.. create yet another new forum, just to say its "official", I see no purpose. If its 
                   for ppl getting support, we have already 2 or 3 huge forums, taht works. If its not a priority (as it is the 
                   buildserver), lets leave it as it is now
19:16 @<darix> cthiel: if i am no longer calm i wouldnt type here but explaining it to you with some hitting arguments ;)
19:16 @<henne> guys
19:16 @<darix> aka_druid: are they linked from the wiki already?
19:16 @<henne> ill kick you
19:16 +<adrianS> henne: what do we do when it disappears or the owner suddenly wants $money ?
19:16 +<skh> darix: yes
19:16 @<darix> good
19:16 @<henne> adrianS: link to another forum?
19:16 @<darix> we are set folks.
19:16 @<darix> next?
19:16 +<the_dude> i agree with adrianS wait
19:16 +<the_dude> no rush
19:16 +<adrianS> we can't risk to loose the content, if we define on forum as official one
19:16 +<cthiel> right.
19:16 @<henne> hm
19:17 @<henne> why cant we?
19:17 @<henne> if we explain the situation?
19:17 +<houghi> No possible link between the mailinglist and a forum?
19:17 @<henne> if that high pothetical situation comes
19:17 +<adrianS> I do not think that this can be explained or excused .....
19:18 @<henne> adrianS: never underestimate the power of blame :)
19:18 +<aka_druid> darix: I dunno, but Ive found these ones from google directory: suseforums.net suselinuxsupport.de
19:18 +<adrianS> another problem would be that you will need another login
19:18 @<darix> houghi: technically yes. novell promised something like that.
19:18 @<darix> houghi: thats why we were waiting in first place
19:18 +<skh> aka_druid: we have a list of them on the Communicate page already
19:18 +<yaloki> there already are 2 big SUSE forums, I don't think it's a good idea to have them left standing in the rain like that. 
                openSUSE is also about embracing the existing community.
19:18 +<aka_druid> darix: ah well, as skh said, they are there :)
19:18 +<skh> yaloki: yes, that's what I meant by "alienating" above.
19:18 @<henne> ok stop for a second
19:19 +<aka_druid> skh: here is the source 
                   http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Linux/Distributions/SuSE/
19:19 @<henne> so what we have now is
19:19 @<henne> [ x ] we want a forum
19:19 +<skh> do we want a forum?
19:19 +<skh> I'm not sure about that x
19:19 +<cthiel> skh: _we_ do ;)
19:20 +<adrianS> we have forums, but do we really need an official one ?
19:20 +<soeren> i don't think we need an _official_ forum...
19:20 @<darix> cthiel: why?
19:20 +<skh> cthiel: I don't. I think we have very well working community forums, and that we don't need an official one.
19:20 +<yaloki> personally, if I was one of the guys running the forum since years and contributing to the community and then being 
                put aside by some "official" forum without being engaged into the discussion, I would feel very p***ed about it. Yet, 
                the question is: if there is an "official" SUSE forum, can "legally gray zone" topics be discussed there as well? If 
                not, it still leaves room for unofficial forums.
19:20 @<darix> cthiel: just "to have it" is not an reason
19:20 +<cthiel> let's try to avoid having this discussion without the people that actually requested it...
19:20 +<adrianS> yaloki: yes, very true
19:21 +<adrianS> yaloki: esp. because we need also to remove links to illegal stuff ....
19:21 +<cthiel> sorry for oversimplifying... but people that use irc aren't really the target group of web forums...
19:21 +<skh> cthiel: then let's take the discussion back to the list.
19:21 +<yaloki> originally, the idea with the forum came on the opensuse mailing-list, to move over the "newbies" to the forum and 
                keep the mailing-list free of beginner questions.
19:21 +<cthiel> skh: right.
19:21 +<yaloki> skh: +1
19:21 +<the_dude> the main benefit i see to forum is searchable archives and faq loading
19:22 @<henne> ok
19:22 @<henne> who will start the discussion on the list again?
19:22 @<darix> the_dude: many of those points can be full filled by the wiki
19:22 +<skh> I can summarize and start the discussion
19:22 @<darix> like FAQ
19:22 @<darix> like searchable
19:22 +<adrianS> henne: you write minutes from this session ?
19:22 @<henne> Action Item skh: start web forum diskussion on opensuse@opensuse.org again
19:22 +<cthiel> I won't have the time over the next couple of weeks, to go ahead skh
19:22 @<henne> adrianS: i log
19:22 @<henne> adrianS: i grep, i pipe :P
19:22 +<skh> adrian: it's logged ;-)
19:22 +<cthiel> s/to/so/
19:22 +<adrianS> henne: please make a comprehension of all topics and mail it to the listr
19:23 +<adrianS> read the log is not something what many people will do
19:23 @<henne> after the meeting is over...
19:23 @<henne> not now
19:23 +<adrianS> yes, thanks !
19:23 +<cwh> for the minutes: I coul offer a machine (hosted by suse) for an forum
19:23 +<skh> cwh: oooh!
19:23 +<cthiel> cwh: but it would miss iChains support, right?
19:23 @<henne> hmmmm
19:23 @<darix> cwh: for wikis too?
19:23 +<adrianS> cwh: hardware isn't the problem, but thanks
19:23 @<darix> ^^
19:23 +<adrianS> cthiel: WIP ...
19:24 @<henne> lets find out first if we really want an official forum :)
19:24 +<cthiel> adrianS: cool ;)
19:24 +<skh> ok, next. ;-)
19:24 @<darix> henne: next?

Doc server

19:24 @<henne> NEXT TOPIC:  Doc server
19:24 +<skh> anybody from documentation here?
19:24 +<cwh> cthiel: at the moment it woul miss ichain
19:24 +<cwh> darix: no
19:24 +<adrianS> The doc server is on hold, until the SLES docu is out
19:25 +<adrianS> there are open question within the docu team
19:25 +<yaloki> excuse me but what is "doc server" ?
19:25 +<adrianS> like, all docu from the nuernberg team is under GPL (or GFDL?)
19:25 +<adrianS> but the books do contain also other content provided by other teams
19:25 @<darix> may i say a few words about it?
19:25 @<henne> about the doc server?
19:25 @<darix> yeah
19:25 +<adrianS> please do
19:26 @<darix> ok
19:26 @<henne> when adrianS is finished yes
19:26 @<darix> basically we want to have all documentation of the distro available for reading.
19:26 @<darix> the handbooks, manpages, /usr/share/doc/packages
19:26 @<darix> if possible for old distributioons too
19:26 +<adrianS> and we want to give everybody a way to contribute to the books
19:27 +<yaloki> ok, that clarifies it, thank you
19:27 @<darix> i am already working on a script to update the server if new documentation pops up
19:27 +<skh> and that content is not wiki-able, so -> separate server.
19:27 @<darix> furthermore it should be possible to contribute to the books.
19:27 @<darix> we investigated ways to migrate the docbook to a wiki page and back
19:27 +<bill-barriere> simply without knowing latex ?
19:27 @<darix> but it seems there is no viable way for this
19:28 +<yaloki> maybe a very short technical word about it ? svn+docbook ?
19:28 @<darix> bill-barriere: we dont use latex. thats to last centure;)
19:28 +<skh> bill-barriere: well, docbook
19:28 +<skh> yaloki: yes
19:28 +<yaloki> docbook xml, right ?
19:28 +<bill-barriere> docbook sorry me and those thing
19:28 @<darix> the handbook is maintained in docbook xml. the storage atm is a svn server in nuremberg.
19:29 @<darix> the documentation team is investigating solutions for their workflow and community integration atm.
19:29 +<yaloki> excellent, sounds /very/ good :) thanks for the additional information (and sorry for bugging in the middle)
19:29 @<henne> it would be cool if some of them would be here next time *sigh*
19:29 +<azouhr> this is just a subset of docbook
19:29 +<skh> our documentation team is very keen on opensuse, but don't have much time for it right now. they are active on 
             opensuse-doc@o.o, any discussions there.
19:29 @<darix> azouhr: why didnt you say something earlier
19:29 +<skh> henne: AI henne?
19:29 @<darix> henne: azouhr is berthold
19:30 @<henne> skh: shut up :P
19:30 @<darix> azouhr:  *slaps*
19:30 @<henne> i know
19:30 +<skh> berthold! you here ;-)
19:30 @<darix> azouhr: correct me now :p
19:30 +<azouhr> i just play with my notebook ...
19:30 +<azouhr> ok ... again.
19:30 @<henne> azouhr: anything to add to what darix said about the docserver?
19:30 +<azouhr> in the documentation we use a DTD called novdoc that is something like a subset of docbook
19:31 @<henne> aha
19:31 +<azouhr> this dtd is available on novellforge together with the mechanics we use to build the books
19:31 @<darix> azouhr: but it shuld be expressable with normal docbook dtds right?
19:32 +<azouhr> all the elements we use are available in docbook as well
19:32 @<darix> ok^^
19:32 +<azouhr> it is less to make the xml more easy to read
19:32 +<skh> the link to the forge project is on http://www.opensuse.org/Documentation_Team
19:32 @<henne> guys ok
19:32 @<henne> but what are the news on the doc server?
19:32 +<azouhr> and also to improve the layout.
19:33 @<henne> other then that it is on hold like adrianS said
19:33 +<azouhr> I don't have news on the docserver right now. There is no decision yet about how to publish the texts. We do want to 
                give away the xml source
19:33 @<henne> okay :)
19:33 @<henne> Action Item azouhr: clarify the situation about the docserver
19:33 +<skh> azouhr: if we (the full-time opensuse people) can help you in any way, please say so
19:34 @<darix> azouhr: i hope we can finish my part of the documentation server when 10.1 is out.
19:34 +<azouhr> but it is unclear, if we can provide something like our build tools on a server or if people have to use them on their 
                own machines.
19:34 @<henne> azouhr: is there a wiki page about it?=
19:34 +<azouhr> I fear that I don't have much time that I can invest until CODE10 is finished. there is too much to do there
19:34 +<adrianS> azouhr: technical, we can
19:35 @<henne> hm ok
19:35 @<henne> next topic or anything else on the doc server?
19:35 +<azouhr> one major problem is, that to build the pdf books you need a fo renderer. We currently use XEP from renderx, a 
                commercial renderer. It would be possible to use fop, a freeware renderer, but it does not have all needed 
                capabilities
19:36  * skh smells java and runs
19:36  * henne follows
19:36 +<azouhr> without the renderer, you are still able to create html docs, but no pdf
19:36 +<adrianS> which is anyway better for an open doc server ;)
19:36 +<skh> do you have a detailed list of these missing capabilities?
19:37 +<skh> and what adrian says
19:37 +<azouhr> the one that can tell you the missing thins is toms. I just work on the make mechanics ...
19:37 +<yaloki> skh: don't ask about Apache FOP, I'm sure you don't want to know ;)
19:37 +<skh> I felt brave for a moment.
19:38 +<skh> but maybe we can take this discussion to the doc listr
19:38 +<skh> list
19:38 +<azouhr> that sounds like a good idea
19:38 @<henne> yeah. its details. what i take from here is that it is on hold
19:38 @<darix> skh: i want to join you when you go to daniel and ask for the package;)
19:38 +<skh> heh.
19:38 @<henne> and that we need to put it up for the next meeting
19:39 +<skh> next.
19:39 +<skh> (beer)

Better wiki search

19:39 @<henne> NEXT TOPIC:  Better wiki search
19:39 @<henne> darix?
19:39 @<henne> or who?
19:39 @<darix> henne: i hear about that the first time
19:39 +<skh> adrian: what about google?
19:39 @<darix> for the current wiki we have only title search enabled
19:39 @<darix> skh: wait
19:39 @<darix> i fixed that for the new wikis
19:40 @<darix> you can use the builtin wiki full text search
19:40 @<darix> and i fixed the setting for the namespaces that are searched by default.
19:40 @<darix> should give some good improvements here
19:40  * henne points at Beineri 
19:40 @<darix> we did intensive search testing while testing the sdb migration.
19:40 @<henne> he did put it to the agenda
19:41 +<skh> didn't he leave already?
19:41 @<henne> ah. right. bowling
19:41 +<skh> then I'd say wait for the new wiki and reassess
19:41 +<skh> and next topic
19:41 @<henne> sounds reasonable
19:42 @<darix> skh: last comment
19:42 +<skh> sure
19:42 @<darix> we are investigating solutions like lucene
19:42 @<henne> ok thats it?
19:42 @<darix> that would give even betterfulltext search
19:42 @<darix> but that is very longterm
19:42 @<darix> yes
19:42 @<henne> NEXT TOPIC:

'openSUSE'<->'SUSE Linux' confusion, future naming of "OSS" & "Eval" products

19:42 @<henne> 'openSUSE'<->'SUSE Linux' confusion, future naming of "OSS" & "Eval" products
19:43 @<henne> thats a tricky one
19:43 +<cthiel> no as tricky as you might think henne ;)
19:43 +<cthiel> s/no/not/
19:43 +<skh> first, the naming discussion was heard, and is being discussed way up there
19:43 +<skh> rest is for michl
19:43 +<michl> for 10.1 we'll have SUSE Linux only
19:44 +<michl> in the box and for free download
19:44 +<cthiel> => note: there won't be SUSE Linux OSS and SUSE Linux anymore!
19:44 +<cthiel> it's just _SUSE Linux_
19:44 +<michl> todays OSS version will be SUSE Linux as well and we offer an addtional binary CD
19:44 +<michl> for all users interestet in that stuff as well
19:45 @<henne> question from yaloki
19:45 +<yaloki> awesome, but please keep in mind that it has to be communicated properly, some people are _very_ pedantic about using 
                a 100% OSS version
19:45 +<yaloki> oops. sorry, my previous question has just been voided as there won't be a "SUSE Linux OSS"
19:45 +<michl> for download we offer DVDs as well, there the defaul installation is with binary packages as well
19:45 @<henne> yaloki: ok
19:45 +<yaloki> just make very clear how to get a 100% OSS version of SUSE Linux
19:46 +<skh> yaloki: noted and seconded.
19:46 +<yaloki> the pseudo reputation of SUSE Linux "not being free" has caused big damage in the FOSS community the past years
19:46 @<henne> Action Item henne: rework download page (again!!!! no!!!! ARGH!!!!)
19:46 @<darix> yaloki: i think that suse linux is not free is caused by a lot of FUD and false information.
19:46 +<yaloki> just making clear that SUSE Linux is no less free than Debian
19:46 @<darix> just my 2 cents
19:47 @<henne> note!
19:47 @<henne> noted!
19:47 +<skh> darix: yes, but off-topic
19:47 @<henne> question from bill-barriere
19:47 +<bill-barriere> how will that work out for all mirror cuz atm its fragmented between oss and official mirror
19:48 +<adrianS> bill-barriere: in the same way
19:48 +<adrianS> binary only stuff will not be on opensuse.org
19:48 +<adrianS> only on suse.com or novell.com
19:48 @<henne> so you will get 5 CDs OSS software form opensuse.org and an extra CD with binary stuff from suse.com right?
19:48 +<bill-barriere> but for iso and inst-source and it bad to fragment it that way ?
19:48 +<adrianS> henne: right
19:49 +<bill-barriere> exemple is my univ they only mirror the suse.de part or whatever so they get supplementary and iso but no 
                       inst-source
19:49 +<adrianS> bill-barriere: I do not get your question
19:49 +<skh> bill-barriere: the world is fragmented like this. the alternative would be not to offer the binary-only / nonfree things 
             at all
19:50 @<henne> ok but how can we address that people are not syncing opensuse.org?
19:50 @<henne> but only suse.de
19:50 +<adrianS> bill-barriere: I consider this problem on your side ;)
19:50 +<bill-barriere> thats my point
19:50 +<skh> bill-barriere: we don't want non-free software on opensuse.org, so yes, you will have to find a mirror that carries what  
             you need.
19:50  * bill-barriere see admin poking in sight :(
19:50 +<skh> mirrors should have been a separate topic maybe?
19:50 @<henne> true
19:51 @<darix> henne: talk to the mirrors. i know it helps
19:51 @<henne> Topic Next Meeting: mirrors
19:51 +<adrianS> urgml ...
19:51 @<henne> adrianS: hm?
19:51 +<adrianS> IMHO we are in good shape with the mirrors
19:51 +<skh> the new CD layout results in less media, if I have understood correctly, so it will reduce the load on the mirrors? 
             adrian?
19:51 @<darix> if you have much bandwidth and traffic spare. contact adrian about mirroring
19:51 @<darix> adrianS: we are not. :)
19:51 +<adrianS> 10 strong mirrors who do get updates every day
19:51 @<darix> adrianS: many mirrors that claim to carry factory
19:51 @<henne> adrianS: everybody strongly disagrees :)
19:52 @<darix> actually dont have it
19:52 +<adrianS> last time I looked they got it within 3 days
19:52 +<skh> adrian: how often is factory updated?
19:52 +<adrianS> except one, okay
19:52 @<henne> well lets not make this a topic now ok?
19:52 +<skh> ok.
19:52  * skh shuts up
19:52 @<henne> we are already way to late :)
19:53 +<skh> but if everybody has problems, we need to do something about it even if we think we should be ok
19:53 @<henne> so michl will you explain this move on the mailinglist in detail please?
19:53 @<darix> henne: it is to late for shopping anyway. we can do some more hours ;)
19:53 +<skh> henne: schedule 2 hours next time
19:53 +<skh> it's worth it
19:53 +<adrianS> henne: michl did
19:53 @<henne> skh: its been 1:53 :)
19:53 +<skh> henne: so we have 7 left ;-)
19:53 @<henne> ok
19:53 +<skh> for Status 10.1
19:54 +<skh> aj still alive?
19:54 @<darix> how many of you will install of 10.1b2 on thursday?
19:54 +<AJaeger> Yes!
19:54 @<henne> Action Item michl: explain the new media layout on opensuse@opensuse.org
19:54 +<AJaeger> henne_log: on opensuse-factory!
19:54 +<AJaeger> Ok, let me start with SUSE Linux 10.1!
19:55 @<henne> wait wait wait
19:55  * AJaeger waits
19:55 @<henne> are we trough with that renaming topic?
19:55 +<skh> I think we should discuss it on the main list
19:55 @<henne> ok lets go
19:55 @<henne> Next Topic:
19:55 +<skh> it's not a factory topic and we reach more people there
19:55 @<henne> SUSE Linux 10.1 :)
19:56 +<bill-barriere> well it still leave too seperated site site /suse and /opensuse would prefer to have a common repository for my 
                       part
19:56 @<henne> skh: yeah
19:56 +<AJaeger> So, me now?
19:56 +<adrianS> skh: maybe you can take this AI from michl ?
19:56 @<henne> bill-barriere: lets discuss that on the mailinglist
19:56 +<skh> adrianS: he needs to braindump to me then, but ok
19:56 @<henne> ok
19:56 @<henne> Action Item skh: explain the new media layout on opensuse@opensuse.org
19:57 @<henne> can we continue now?
19:57 +<skh> yes

Status SUSE Linux 10.1

19:57  * henne puts the spotlight on the AJaegermeister
19:57 @<henne> AJaeger: go ahead :)
19:57  * AJaeger thanks the Henne!
19:57 +<AJaeger> Thanks everybody for downloading and testing SUSE Linux 10.1 Beta1.
19:57 +<AJaeger> beta2 will be out on thursday *if* we fix the remaining blockers in time to put beta2 tomorrow on the mirrors.
19:58 +<AJaeger> Due to only one week between the betas, not all bugs reported for beta1 will be fixed for beta2.
19:58 +<AJaeger> Some of our teams are also doing a bit of development, so beta2 will see some new stuff:
19:58 +<AJaeger> KDE 3.5.1 (nearly final)
19:58 +<AJaeger> - AppArmor is enabled by default
19:58 +<AJaeger> - audit daemon should be running by default as it's used instead of  syslog for AppArmor
19:58 +<AJaeger>  subfs has been dropped.
19:58 +<adrianS> remark: "on the mirrors" means in the stage area, public access will be later (thurday)
19:59 @<henne> question from schiele
19:59 +<bill-barriere> have you poked at the ati driver (or ati folks) so it could work ?
19:59 +<schiele> What does replace subfs?
19:59 +<AJaeger> - we're going to switch the package manager libraries based on Red Carpet - which is planned for beta3.  Beta2 will 
                   have rug, zmd and zen-updater already.
19:59 +<adrianS> remark: subfs will be replaced by a desktop side solution for automounting
20:00 @<henne> wtf is that supposed to mean?
20:00 +<AJaeger> schiele: hal has support for some stuff already, the rest is gnome-volume-manager (under GNOME)
20:00 +<AJaeger> and for KDE there's also some binary (don't know the name right now).
20:00 +<skh> and all the others know how to mount manually?
20:00 @<darix> coolo created some nice stuff.
20:00 +<skh> (non-KDE, non-GNOME users)
20:01 @<darix> 20:00:56 < asklein> And what about fvwm users, or other windowmanagers?
20:01 +<AJaeger> skh: Yes, there's no solution for non-KDE/GNOME.
20:01 @<henne> so were back to mounting manually?
20:01 @<henne> cool :)
20:01 +<AJaeger> I expect that longer term, some application that uses hal will do this for other windowmanagers.
20:01 +<skh> doesn't sound too bad
20:01 @<darix> AJaeger: as the deadline is too close for 10.1... will you put it on the agenda for 10.2?
20:02 +<AJaeger> darix: What do you mean?
20:02 @<henne> antoher question from asklein
20:02 @<darix> AJaeger: a non kde/gnome solution that i can put in my CD and usb stick and it will get mounted
20:02 +<AJaeger> If I get one, I consider it - but yes, should be a feature for 10.2...
20:02 +<AJaeger> asklein: go ahead!
20:03 +<asklein> Not event the old way of putting a line into /etc/fstab, so that a user can mount it?
20:03 +<adrianS> asklein: that would conflict
20:03 +<AJaeger> asklein: Correct.
20:03 @<henne> uhm
20:03 @<henne> remark: that sucks
20:03 @<henne> :)
20:04 @<darix> seconds that
20:04 @<henne> houghi has a question about this move
20:04 +<houghi> Pity the automount won't work under non-KDE/Gnome. No way to have it somehow for those who want it?
20:04 +<adrianS> houghi: you will be able to run the kde backend at least manually
20:05 +<AJaeger> I'm not aware of a solution right now.  Btw. an FAQ has been: How to disable subfs ;-)
20:05 +<AJaeger> adrianS: Yes, that should work as well.
20:05 +<adrianS> AJaeger: which was because of the sync problem within the kernel, which is solved anyway
20:05 @<darix> _Marcus_: again
20:05 +<_Marcus_> there is no autmount. it calls hal to actually mount the device via a callback
20:05 +<AJaeger> I propose that you all play around with beta2 and discuss this on opensuse-factory.
20:05 +<houghi> Disableing subfs fore those who want it sibables is something else as ripping it out alltogether.
20:05 +<_Marcus_> you could write a helper program to do it.
20:05 @<henne> yeah
20:06 @<henne> lets take this to opensuse-factory
20:06 @<henne> and wait for beta2 first :)
20:06 +<houghi> OK.
20:07 @<henne> who will start this discussion?
20:07 @<henne> houghi you?
20:07 +<skh> (first non-SUSE Action Item handed out!)
20:07  * skh cheers
20:07 +<houghi> OK.
20:07 @<henne> Action Itme houghi: start discussion about subfs replacement in non KDE/GNOME systems
20:07 @<henne> hooray :)
20:08 +<houghi> I will wait for Beta2 first
20:08 @<darix> skh: we can give organizing fosdem to pascal ;)
20:08  * AJaeger thanks houghi
20:08 +<houghi> NP
20:08 @<henne> hm
20:08 +<AJaeger> Any questions on 10.1 in general?
20:09 +<yaloki> is a version freeze planned some time for 10.1 betas ?
20:09 @<henne> question from yaloki
20:09 +<yaloki> or is it continuous bleeding edge until release time ?
20:09 +<yaloki> <- from the packager perspective
20:09 +<jcnengel> The asus_acpi module just got an update to 0.30 from Karol Kozimor. Will you take this for the 10.1?
20:09 +<yaloki> I don't want to rebuild tons of my RPMs with every beta ;)
20:09 @<darix> yaloki: it is cold as ice already
20:10 +<AJaeger> yaloki: We have called a version freeze with beta1 already - but do make a few exceptions.
20:10 +<yaloki> ok, thanks
20:10 +<skh> yaloki: we're at bugfixing now.
20:10 +<yaloki> ok, so basically it is stable for packaging (and not getting major version changes on KDE or something)
20:10 +<AJaeger> jcnengel: Don't know - please open a bugzilla report and let's discuss this with the experts.
20:10 +<skh> none planned that I know (but you know, the KDE team is bowling....)
20:11 +<AJaeger> yaloki: KDE 3.5.1 was the last major change - and then we have the package manager changes.
20:11 +<yaloki> great, thanks, that answers my question (I remember some big version changes in-between 10.0 betas)
20:11 +<AJaeger> And we're waiting for GCC 4.1.0 final - but that's it in general - further updates will be only bugfix updates but no 
                 more features.
20:12 +<cthiel> .. in theory ;)
20:12 +<yaloki> it's the same ABI anyway, the GCC version shouldn't be an issue
20:12 +<skh> we at least try
20:12 +<AJaeger> cthiel: Every exception needs to go through my colleague Thorsten and me.
20:12 @<darix> konold: wait until the meeting is over. i think aj will be interested :)
20:12 +<AJaeger> yaloki: I hope.
20:13 +<yaloki> GCC 3.4 upwards are binary/ABI-compatible, so changing the GCC version (and libstdc++ & co) won't mean rebuilding, 
                that's what I meant ;)
20:13 @<henne> ok
20:13 @<henne> GCC getails
20:13 +<skh> henne: close it
20:13 +<yaloki> sorry, that was noisy
20:13 +<AJaeger> yaloki: We rebuild the complete distro if a new GCC gets in.
20:13 @<henne> ok lets call it a day
20:13 @<henne> then
20:13 @<henne> one last thing:
20:14 @<henne> As the topic says this was the first openSUSE status meeting
20:14 @<henne> we are planing to do more
20:14 @<henne> way more ;)
20:14 @<henne> that means we will do this now every 2 weeks
20:14 +<houghi> http://www.opensuse.org/2006-01-24-status-meeting had a question from Pflodo wich has not been asnwerd.
20:14 @<henne> houghi: i take it to the next meeting
20:15 +<houghi> OK.
20:15 @<henne> so tomorrow i will create a page for the next meeting
20:15 +<skh> it also had an unanswered question _to_ Pflodo...
20:15 @<darix> hmm
20:15 +<skh> but yes
20:15 @<henne> and we can start to fill the agenda
20:15 @<darix> henne: i suggest moving it to a category
20:15 @<darix> like
20:15 @<henne> darix: details. tomorrow :)
20:15 @<darix> http://www.opensuse.org/Meetings:status-2006-01-24
20:15 @<darix> that way it will be easier to find
20:16 @<henne> sure
20:16 +<skh> AI darix.
20:16 @<henne> thanks for participoating everyone
20:16 @<henne> it was a really nice meeting
20:16 @<henne> OVER AND OUT
--- Log closed Tue Jan 24 20:16:22 2006