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Şuraya atla: kullan, ara

This is the transcript of the 2006-02-07-status-meeting.

Meeting minutes

--- Log opened Tue Feb 07 18:00:27 2006
18:00 @<henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Status Meeting!
18:01 @<henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE.
18:01 @<henne> Some technicality's:
18:01 @<henne> This channel is moderated during the time of the session.
18:01 @<henne> But it has +z set so the operator (but nobody else) can see what youre writing. So if you have a question or remark just write it.
18:01 @<henne> The moderator (henne) then will give you a voice and you can repeat your question for everyone.
18:01 @<henne> The topics of this meeting are:
18:01 @<henne> 1. mirrors - bill-barriere
18:01 @<henne> 2. frontpage redesign - Pflodo
18:01 @<henne> 3. forum discussion results - Henne
18:02 @<henne> 4. subfs discussion results - houghi
18:02 @<henne> 5. LinuxTag - Christian Boltz
18:02 @<henne> 6. Foreign language mailing lists - skh
18:02 @<henne> 7. SDB - howtos, migration, what is an SDB article - (not)localhorst
18:02 @<henne> 8. CDB/HCL - hardware database efforts - the_dude
18:02 @<henne> 9. SUSE Linux 10.1 Status / Roadmap - AJ

Mirrors situation

18:02 @<henne> So first topic mirrors
18:03 @<henne> FOR F**** SAKE
18:03 @<henne> bill-barriere: thats yours
18:03 +<bill-barriere> some mirror only mirror that like my univ
18:04 +<bill-barriere> anyway for server i would like having the ftp on main server , something worked out so not onlt the opensuse (dev) mirror get the ftp
18:05 @<henne> bill-barriere: could you elaborate please
18:05 @<henne> i dont understand
18:05 +<bill-barriere> cuz the way it is now there is 2 server listing the oss and novell listed
18:05 +<bill-barriere> official' one
18:05 @<henne> yes
18:05 +<bill-barriere> well need too get all those together one way or the other :P
18:06 @<henne> bill-barriere: so you want to consolidate the 2 installation sources?
18:06 @<henne> on one ftp server?
18:07 @<henne> do i understand correctly?
18:07 +<bill-barriere> well something like that but if a server only mirror the official part they only get update iso and extra no ftp inst
18:07 +<bill-barriere> eg
18:07 @<henne> so someone has to take care that all "old" mirrors that mirror only nowdays also mirror
18:07 +<bill-barriere> doesnt carry a full ftp installation source
18:08 @<henne> adrianS: isnt there a mirror mailinglist?
18:08 +<bill-barriere> you need too also mirror the opensuse part with i cant get :/
18:08 +<cthiel> bill-barriere: we have decided to split those inst-sources on purpose...
18:08 +<adrianS> henne: official adress to request access is, it is docuemented in the wiki
18:08 @<henne> adrianS: its not about requesting something
18:09 @<henne> adrianS: its about someone has to tell all mirror maintainers that they should look into mirroing
18:09 +<cthiel> bill-barriere: (just for the record)
18:09 @<henne> because everybody says there are to few mirrors
18:09 +<benJIman> indeed now we have nearly no good mirrors of stable inst-source, and none of factory (gwdg is unusable at peak times), this was not an issue pre the split in 10.0
18:09 +<adrianS> bill-barriere: we will not merge these. because we strictly seperate the open source project from the commercial .com services
18:10 +<bill-barriere> bleeeehhhh
18:10 @<henne> adrianS: its not about merging!!!
18:10 +<adrianS> bill-barriere: but we discussed this already the last time
18:10 +<bill-barriere> this doesnt work ....
18:10 +<cthiel> bill-barriere: what doesn't work?
18:10 +<bill-barriere> the commercial also need a inst source
18:10 @<henne> adrianS: its about having to few mirrors
18:10 +<benJIman> adrianS: last time you said we were in a good sitaution for mirrors, which is clearly not true
18:10 +<cthiel> bill-barriere: the commerical part has an inst-source
18:10 @<henne> adrianS: everybody in here agrees on that
18:11 +<bill-barriere> almost no server with "good" bandwidth mirror the opensuse part
18:11 @<henne> cthiel: stop explaining the situation. its not about the inst-src split
18:11 +<cthiel> bill-barriere: have you tried to use / ?
18:11 @<darix> cthiel: did you ever try to install factory out side of suse?
18:11 @<darix> :)
18:11 @<darix> try that
18:11 +<cthiel> darix: yes, I recently  di
18:11 +<bill-barriere> this is not about whatever fuzzy redir you got but what is really mirroired
18:11 +<bill-barriere> you guy use the freaking internal mirror and dont even look
18:12 +<yaloki> not true, in Europe there are a couple of big mirrors with big bandwidth. IMO the problem is USA
18:12 +<benJIman> yaloki: belnet doesn't mirror factory
18:12 +<cthiel> yaloki: even the US should be in good shape right now.
18:12 +<yaloki> especially in .de and .be, there are huge mirrors, e.g. (same bandwidth and hardware as
18:12 +<adrianS>,,, and others do have a good bandwidth
18:12 +<yaloki> cthiel: no
18:12 +<yaloki> is incomplete
18:12 +<yaloki> since months
18:12 +<cthiel> yaloki: hang on ;)
18:12 +<yaloki> there is no properly working mirror in the US, we witness that every day on #suse and #opensuse
18:13 @<henne> adrianS: and the rest is in europe
18:13 +<bill-barriere> is always corrupt
18:13 +<bill-barriere> its the only one in usa
18:13 +<adrianS> do we speak about isos or factory ?
18:13 +<yaloki> I'm speaking about the 10.0 installation source
18:13 +<skh> cthiel, adrianS: could you please stop saying we're in good shape when all users disagree?
18:13 +<benJIman> there are plenty of mirrors for isos, there are not plenty of mirrors for both the stable inst-source and the factory inst-source
18:13 +<yaloki> but indeed, as benJIman said, factory mirroring is awful
18:14 +<bill-barriere> there
18:14 +<yaloki> yes, sorry guys, but the mirror situation is very good in europe but terrible outside of europe
18:14 @<henne> ok let me summarize
18:14 +<cthiel> ... just to give some mirror stats: the following mirrors are just now having inst-source (extra) on
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<yaloki> IMO it's not ok to not have a single properly working mirror for 10.0 installation source in the US
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<bill-barriere> extra isnt the ftp inst
18:14 @<darix> cthiel: factory instsources are no fun :|
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<bill-barriere> kick the flooder
18:14 +<yaloki> rwth-aachen doesn't do the instsources for 10.0
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:14 +<cthiel> ./
18:15 +<yaloki> lol
18:15 @<henne> heh
18:15 @<darix> cthiel: thanks for flooding us
18:15 @<henne> please let me summarize
18:15 @<henne> no need to argue about anything
18:15 +<yaloki> yes, please do
18:15 +<adrianS> do have complete sync from today according to the logs
18:15 +<adrianS> what exactly is missing there ?
18:16 @<henne> we obviously have a problem with mirrors in the US (outside europe)
18:16 @<henne> for installation sources
18:16 @<henne> isos are fine
18:16 +<bill-barriere> there problem is not missing its about corruption
18:16 +<adrianS> bill-barriere: what is corrupted ?
18:16 +<yaloki> it's being constantly corrupt since months, has never been a reliable installation source - we've been witnessing *lots* of users
                with repository problems when using
18:16 +<cthiel> ... by the way -- is a nice US mirror
18:16 +<yaloki> cthiel: corrupt as well
18:17 +<yaloki> really, I'm sorry guys, but they are, we see it every day here on IRC, people having issues both with and
18:17 +<cthiel> yaloki: that's why you guys should be using instaed
18:17 +<adrianS> yaloki: when do you get which error ?
18:17 @<darix> henne: summary?:)
18:17 @<henne> yes please
18:17 @<henne> cthiel: it makes absolutely no sense to discuss technicalitys here
18:18 @<henne> so
18:18 @<henne> who will take the Action Item to discuss this on
18:18 @<henne> possibly someone from SUSE so we can get ftpadmin involved
18:19 @<henne> ok i take it
18:19 @<henne> if nobody wants too
18:19 @<henne> next topic
18:19 +<chouimat> speaking of mirroring factory any plan to have more drpmsync mirrors? and maybe also a client that let you select what you want to download ...
		  I just need i586,ppc and src deltas
18:20 @<darix> chouimat: patches welcome. :)
18:20 +<chouimat> darix: I'm currently looking into this
18:20 @<darix> lets wait for adrian.
18:20 @<henne> adrianS: whats the status there?
18:21 @<henne> Action Item henne: clear mirror confusion
18:21 +<cthiel> chouimat: it's not that easy to get mirrors to set up drpmsyncd's -- but AFAIK we have someone in the loop to start offering drpmsyncd (some uni in germany  I guess)
18:22 +<adrianS> henne: only two mirrors offered to host a drpmsyncd yet, but both are not running yet
18:22 +<jengelh> BTW, interestingly enough, downloading and applying deltarpms takes longer than bulk or rsync downloading...
18:22 +<cthiel> chouimat: it's mainly because those mirorr admins don't have any clue what drpmsync does and don't use it therefore.
                (I'v already tried to get Eberhard tto use it, but he refused to  use it)
18:22 +<cthiel> jengelh: that's depending on your connection...
18:22 @<henne> so is drpmsync maybe the wrong way to go?
18:23 +<chouimat> I have good speed but limited bandwidth ... and I'm allready over my 50GB for february
18:23 @<henne> giving that nobody seems to want to install it
18:23 +<jengelh> cthiel: Even for ISDN, downloading is sometimes faster than applying.
18:23 +<cthiel> henne: no -- not generally. if you have a small line and a fast maschine, it's the way to go...
18:23 +<schiele> Not, it is not the wrong way because it is the only way to get such a large amount of files to the end user.
18:23 @<henne> ok. just a question by me :)
18:23 +<chouimat> henne: or maybe a nice tarball of all deltas?
18:24 @<henne> so summary
18:24 @<darix> chouimat: maybe help schiele testing his client. :)
18:24 +<cthiel> chouimat: the idea of drpmsync is to only get the deltas you really need... so a tarball won't be an improvements...
18:24 +<chouimat> darix: :)
18:24 +<cthiel> but anyway, let's realyl take this onto the mailinglist!
18:25 +<adrianS> well, there is no reason to stop the drpmsync service, but it doesn't help much without some mirrors
18:25 @<henne> not yet
18:25 @<henne> ok. so we are desperately looking for drpmsync mirrors
18:25 @<henne> can we maybe tell that people somehwere?
18:26 +<schiele> On the mirror mailing list?
18:26 +<cthiel> henne: correct
18:26 @<henne> especiall explain why this is better, whats involved in setting this up etc
18:26 @<henne> whos working on it and so on
18:26 +<cthiel> henne: + we most likely will need  some more documentation / promotion on drpmsync....
18:26 @<henne> ok
18:27 @<henne> who wants to take that as an Action Item?
18:27 +<adrianS> there are a number of wiki pages already
18:27 @<henne> step up!
18:27 +<cthiel> adrianS: those might not be enough ;)
18:28 +<adrianS> no, the issue is that mirror admins are not easily install a new service
18:28 +<adrianS> I asked really every of our mirror admins
18:28 +<cthiel> adrianS: exactly.
18:28 @<henne> so we need to ask more people and explain better
18:28 @<henne> or live with the fact that we dont have enough drpmsync mirrors
18:28 @<henne> which one will we do?
18:28 +<michl> we should go for better explanatin
18:28 @<henne> if nobody takes this as action item well just let it be
18:29 @<henne> michl: so action item for you?
18:29 +<adrianS> please use/extend   as a base
18:29 +<schiele> Or we need mirrors just to mirror the deltas as well and change the drpmsync as I proposed to mls already.
18:29 +<cthiel> schiele: right -- that should be done in any case.
18:29 @<henne> schiele: you seem involved pretty deeply. would you take the action item? :)
18:29 +<schiele> Ok, so I do.
18:29 @<henne> hooray :)
18:30 @<henne> thank you!
18:30 +<michl> thank you
18:30 @<darix> *pets schiele*
18:30 @<henne> ok ArOs had a suggestion for 10.1 release
18:30 +<ArOs> I have one small suggestion for making iso downloading better when the 10.1 is released - please put the torrent files for the iso's
              on the web-server, so that we don't need to download them from the not responding ftp server. What about that?
18:31 @<henne> adrianS?
18:31 +<schiele> And/or release the torrents already when the staging server is preloaded to force more people using BitTorrent.
18:31 +<skh> don't we already?
18:31 +<cthiel> skh: I think so
18:31 @<henne> no torrents where not on some webserver i think
18:31 +<adrianS> ArOs: do not react at all for you ?
18:31 @<henne> or well hidden
18:32 @<darix> cthiel: the torrent files are on or mirrors.
18:32 +<adrianS> it has a configuration that torrent files get prefered delivered
18:32 +<ArOs> well - it did. But it took some time.
18:32 +<adrianS> the files are small, what is some time ?
18:32 @<darix> i think uploading them into the wiki shouldnt be a problem
18:32 @<henne> yeah
18:33 @<darix> notlocalhorst: will you take care of putting them into the wiki?
18:33 @<henne> Action Item notlocalhorst:  upload final 10.1 torrents to the wiki
18:33 @<darix> \o/
18:33 +<ArOs> at first - the server did not respond. But after a while (15 sec) the download started slownly.
18:33 +<adrianS> ArOs: do speak about a time less than 30 seconds ?
18:33 @<henne> Action Item schiele: discuss how we can make the drpmsync service better
18:34 @<henne> adrianS: whats the problem with uploading them to the wiki?
18:35 @<henne> adrianS: so they are not on the same host as everything else?
18:35 +<adrianS> no problem, but 15 seconds do neither count regarding the complete download time ;)
18:35 @<darix> schiele: can you take bittorrent seeders into the item?
18:35 @<henne> yeah well. it does not hurt so stop arguing about it :)
18:35 +<schiele> Ok.
18:35 @<darix> it would be good to have more highbandwidth seeders.
18:35 @<darix> :)
18:35 @<darix> thanks
18:35 @<henne> ok finaly next topic?
18:35 @<darix> yeah
18:36 @<darix> henne: take sonjas topic
18:36 +<ArOs> well... maybe the ftp server could get rid of the torrent requests..
18:36 @<darix> she has to run later and gather new people for opensuse. :)
18:36 @<henne> ok

Foreign language mailing lists

18:36 @<henne> 6. Foreign language mailing lists - skh
18:36 +<skh> thanks ;-)
18:36 +<skh> This is a short one I think.
18:37 +<skh> It was requested that any foreign language wiki gets its associated mailing list in that language.
18:37 +<skh> so right now we'd need opensuse-{de,fr}
18:37 +<skh> and es
18:37 +<skh> Is there anything that speaks against it?
18:38 +<adrianS> or opensuse-wiki-de ?
18:38 @<darix> adrianS: it is about general purpose language mailinglists.
18:38 @<darix> not only wiki related
18:38 @<henne> hrm
18:38 +<skh> This might clash with existing user lists like suse-linux.
18:38 @<darix> skh: you forgot italian. they asked for it at first place.
18:38 @<henne> we end up with 60 mailing lists then
18:38 +<skh> and italian.
18:38 +<adrianS> skh: yes
18:39 +<skh> I think it is a good idea to give the new languages a place to discuss opensuse and their wiki stuff.
18:39 @<henne> but not for general purposes please
18:39 +<skh> If the lists are quiet, they don't hurt us, do they?
18:39 +<skh> henne: why not?
18:39 @<henne> wiki specific yes
18:40 @<darix> henne: wiki lists are not this useful yet. imho. the general wiki list is not crowded enough
18:40 +<skh> wiki specific is overkill
18:40 +<yaloki> I second that. Let's just try and we'll see. It's not that much effort to set it up, right ?
18:40 @<henne> skh: because we end up with 8xn-lang mailinglists
18:40 +<yaloki> if we don't try, we won't know whether it works or not
18:40 +<skh> henne: yepp. wonderful.
18:40 @<darix> yaloki: see ... once you setup something ... getting rid of it again ... usually causes people getting angry.
18:40 +<skh> (I mean that)
18:40 +<yaloki> let's not start yet another endless thread as with the forums. I would be in favor of just doing it, as people are requesting it. at least in this case.
18:41 @<henne> so you guys want opensuse-$
18:41 +<yaloki> I would favor that, but that's just MHO ;)
18:41 +<the_dude> perhaps there should be a minimum number of requests before it get satisfied
18:42 @<henne> so who requested $lang mailinglists?
18:42 +<skh> henne: it
18:42 @<henne> and for what language? :)
18:42 @<darix> henne: 1 italian guy
18:42 +<skh> two italian guys.
18:42 @<henne> ok two makes a mailinglist
18:42 +<AJaeger> So, should we start with just one language - to test it - or do all languages we have wikis in directly?
18:42 @<darix> AJaeger: i am in favor of rejecting it atm.
18:43 +<skh> I would start with requested languages and add the possibility to the translation howto.
18:43 +<yaloki> on the other hand, if we don't propose it, people won't join in.
18:43 +<skh> darix: why?
18:43 +<yaloki> bare in mind that some people don't speak english
18:43 +<adrianS> skh: which languages are requested ? do suse-linux lists exist for them ?
18:44 +<yaloki> if the list doesn't exist, they'll just skip to some other distro/community, they don't know that they can send mails somewhere to ask for it.
18:44 @<henne> there are only german, english and spanish lists on
18:44 +<jengelh> The problem I see with language-specific mailing lists is that "important things" may only be read by a certain subpart of the opensuse userbase,
                 so I would rather vote no for opensuse-$lang@
18:44 +<skh> (which is a topic for the next meeting: do we want to migrate these to in mid- to longterm?)
18:45 +<skh> jengelh: language specific lists will lead to sub-comunities.
18:45 @<henne> thats a valid concern
18:45 +<jengelh> skh: even more that...
18:45 +<skh> the question is, is that bad?
18:45 +<yaloki> I don't quite agree.
18:45 +<skh> I don't think so.
18:45 +<yaloki> some people just don't speak english at all
18:45 +<skh> because, as yaloki pointed out, right now we just lose these people.
18:45 +<yaloki> e.g. 90% of france ;P
18:45 @<henne> ok
18:45 @<henne> i think we can leave that topic
18:46 +<skh> we can?
18:46 @<henne> yes most people are in favour of $lang ml's
18:46 @<henne> just set them up and see how it goes
18:46 +<jengelh> yaloki: Yeah and the Englishmen can't understand anything the Frenchmen say on their mailinglist. Excuse me when I compare that to
                 "the problem is held withint the french community, they develop workaround and never really report it upstream"
18:47 +<skh> jengelh: I don't see that danger.
18:47 +<jengelh> Well then.
18:47 +<skh> jengelh: I think it's more about a user community helping each other.
18:47 +<yaloki> jengelh: yes but at least they have a central place where to build a french-speaking community around openSUSE
18:47 @<darix> skh: for the procedure ... people should open a bug against opensuse
18:47 @<darix> and request an ML there.
18:47 +<yaloki> same issue exists with forums, newsgroups, mailinglists (splitting the communication channels)
18:47 @<henne> yes i would like that
18:47 @<darix> if this bug gets enough votes
18:47 @<darix> we set it up
18:48 +<skh> darix: why votes?
18:48 +<skh> do we have to pay for mailing lists?
18:48 @<darix> skh: to see there are not only 2 people?
18:48 +<cthiel> what we will need is att least one person on those $lang maillinglists, that takes / redirects topics to the main mailinglists if needed
18:48 +<skh> darix: 2 people are enough as a seed
18:48 +<jengelh> The only language that surpasses English in the amount of speakers is Spanish and Chinese. (Though I doubt opensuse has that many users.)
18:48 +<skh> don't overprocedurize this, please
18:48 @<darix> skh: if those 2 people are just the head of a larger crowd.
18:48 +<jengelh> It ends in a draw for me, judge as you think best.
18:48 +<cthiel> as long as we have someone who feels reesponsible for a mailinglist, I guess we are good to go ;)
18:48 @<darix> than it wouldnt be a problem for them to gather the votes.
18:49 @<henne> ok please not this forum discussion again!!!!!
18:49 +<skh> I'd say lets just do it.
18:49 @<henne> yes if you answer the next question
18:49 +<skh> AI who?
18:49 @<darix> skh: yours.
18:49 @<henne> houghi: please
18:49 +<houghi> If it is about support, should there not first be a suse-* list instead of an opensuse-* list?
18:49 +<houghi> (And sorry for being late)
18:50 +<adrianS> houghi: right ...
18:50 +<yaloki> topic for next meeting
18:50 +<skh> houghi: I think it should be an opensuse list because in the long term we want users at opensuse too.
18:50 +<skh> so any new user-level lists belong, in my opinion, on opensuse.
18:50 @<henne> users at suse-linux-* are users at opensuse!
18:50 +<yaloki> IMO suse lists such as suse-linux-e should be moved to opensuse, but let's not discuss this now. Let's keep that for the next meeting ..... ?
18:50 @<henne> stop putting those away into the bin :)
18:51 +<jengelh> (suse-* sounds like the commercial part, opensuse-* is the open thing)
18:51 +<skh> henne: next meeting.
18:51 @<henne> ok obviously we need to figure out a new mailinglist layout
18:51 @<darix> henne: +1 on that (lets get rid of this opensuse- :p)
18:51 +<skh> can we just setup the requested opensuse-it list anyway now before they go to yahoo?
18:51 @<henne> Action Item henne: put mailinglists into the next meetings agenda
18:51 @<henne> skh: sure
18:52 +<adrianS> skh: creating is easy, moving or removing not at all
18:52 @<henne> Action Item henne: setup opensuse-it mailinglist
18:52 +<houghi> yaloki: If it is moved to the next meeting, then the rest should move to the next meeting as well, so we can come out with a consistant name for lists.
18:52 @<henne> houghi: true
18:52 @<henne> houghi: but this one list more wont hurt
18:52 +<adrianS> creatin ml without the idea of the future ml layout is a bad idea IMHO
18:52 @<darix> skh: i think if we explain to the italian guys that we want to get a clean layout first. they will wait.
18:52 @<henne> adrianS: for one it does not matter
18:52 @<darix> at least i hope for enough patience.
18:52 +<jengelh> Maybe the naming should follow opensuse-{ISO 639-2 name}
18:53 +<houghi> henne: would waiting with the italian list hurt?
18:53 @<henne> i dont know. skh?
18:53 +<skh> I think it would hurt.
18:53 @<darix> skh: ask them first?
18:53 +<skh> letting volunteers wait for committee decisions is a bad idea in my opinion.
18:54 @<henne> skh: would you just ask? :)
18:54 +<skh> darix can ask.
18:54 @<henne> skh: if they dont like it at all we create it for them
18:54 +<houghi> If we do not want to wait, we must not move things to the next meeting.
18:54 +<skh> or anybody who wants to wait  ;-)
18:54 @<darix> skh: how long do you think do we need to figure out a layout?
18:54 +<yaloki> I'm not ranting but... is it really necessary to overformalize the discussion and end up into not doing anything as with the forums... ?
18:54 @<darix> skh: i think we can solve this til the end of the week
18:54 @<henne> solve what?
18:55 @<darix> henne: mailinglist name layout
18:55 +<skh> yaloki: forums are WIP
18:55 @<darix> yaloki: sorry to say ... the forum status is a topic later ... and people ARE working on it.
18:55 +<yaloki> "wip"?
18:55 +<houghi> I would just go ahead and du opensuse-* AND suse-linux-* All at opensuse.
18:55 @<darix> yaloki: please dont put out wrong assumptions
18:55 +<yaloki> work in progress, ok
18:55 @<darix> before even asking
18:55 @<henne> ok were not getting anywere
18:56 @<henne> darix: can you ask the italian guys if it hurts them badly to wait a week or two?
18:56 @<darix> henne: i can
18:56 +<skh> darix: the layout is easy, but we'll have to talk to the suse-linux lists too, don't we?
18:56 +<jengelh> Maybe even use ISO 639-3 code for $lang.
18:56 +<skh> now that's a can of worms.
18:56 @<henne> Action Item darix: ask the italian guys if it hurts them badly to wait a week or two
18:57 @<henne> ok next topic
18:57 @<darix> skh: i think we decide the layout on * ... if the suse-linux* list will ever move. they will follow the new layout. EOT
18:57 @<henne> there are several other possibilitys
18:58 +<skh> darix: don't dictate EOTs please ;-)
18:58 @<henne> like having the list as _and_
18:58 @<darix> skh: i can try at least.
18:58 +<jengelh> Merge mailing lists and then be addressible under two different email addrs. Nice 1.
18:58 @<henne> or _and_
18:58 @<henne> or whatever
18:58 +<skh> AI skh: come up with a proposal on mailing list layout in the future
18:59 +<skh> do we discuss this on the list or not? ;-)
18:59 @<darix> skh: til friday?
18:59 @<henne> Action Item skh: come up with a proposal on mailing list layout in the future
18:59 +<skh> darix: my thursday evening, ok.
18:59 @<henne> Action Item henne: help skh wiht ml layout
18:59 @<darix> skh: good. thanks.
18:59 @<henne> next topic?
18:59 +<AJaeger> Ok, next topic finally ;-)
18:59 @<darix> yes
19:00 @<henne> objections?
19:00 @<henne> ok
19:00 +<AJaeger> SUSE Linux 10.1 Status / Roadmap
19:00 @<henne> woot?
19:00 @<henne> do you have to leave AJaeger?
19:00  * henne would like to do that as last topic
19:00 @<henne> its usually very chatty
19:01 +<AJaeger> henne_log: Ok, I wait :-(
19:01 @<henne> thank you :) frontpage lift-up/redesign

19:01 @<henne> ok next topic is: frontpage redesign - Pflodo
19:01 @<henne> he cant be here
19:01 @<henne> but Pflodo thinks that the frontpage is poorly designed for a page with 1m hits
19:02 +<michl> he's right
19:02  * henne thinks so too
19:02 +<michl> it's boring and deliver little information
19:02  * adria wants to suggest to offer more themes first, before we change the default
19:02 @<henne> michl: so do we have resources to make it better?
19:03 +<michl> I think first we need to define what we'd like to change
19:03 @<henne> michl: nah. we need some designs to choose from
19:03 +<michl> we are not crowded with resources but I think we can manage something
19:03 @<henne> and to criticise
19:03 +<cthiel> adrianS: themes can't change to much... it's about what info dow ew antt oo ffer on the front page
19:03 +<skh> Ask people for proposals.
19:04 +<cthiel> skh: that would be the suggested (by peter AFAIK) competition...
19:04 @<darix> henne: i think redesigning the frontpage
19:04 @<henne> what about the competition pflodo suggested?
19:04 +<skh> Everybody who complains sits down and comes up with something they like, then start a discussion?
19:04 @<darix> must not necessarilly related to the style
19:04 +<cthiel> but if nobody comes up with a redesign, we will need to put it on the road ;)
19:04 +<skh> yeah, competition is fine
19:04 +<houghi> Is design technical or pure layout and colours?
19:04 @<darix> i think it can be a better information arrangement
19:04 @<darix> *sigh*
19:04 @<henne> houghi: you have to ask pflodo that. i think he means both
19:05 +<skh> cthiel: if nobody comes up with a better solution it's obviously not too bad or the opensuse community is too lazy, which is also a result.
19:05 +<cthiel> houghi: I think it's rather about regrouping information and adding more stuff to the front page
19:05 +<houghi> Layout of e.g. the menu at the left was already discussed on the list a while ago. Proposals were made then.
19:05 +<skh> houghi: they were?
19:06 @<henne> skh: what about opening it?
19:06 +<skh> henne: I'd be fine with that
19:06  * henne has the finger on the unprotect button
19:06 +<michl> let's do the discussion on opensuse-wiki
19:06 +<michl> I am happy to take the action item
19:06 @<henne> ok
19:06 @<henne> Action Item michl: discuss frontpage redesign on opensuse-wiki
19:06 +<michl> yep, next topic?
19:07 @<henne> objections?
19:07 +<cthiel> ggo ahed
19:07 +<cthiel> arrrgg -- lag ;)

Forum Discussions Result

19:07 @<henne> next topic is: 3. forum discussion results
19:07 @<darix> henne: it sucks to discuss topics without the people you started the topic
19:07 @<darix> henne: forum next
19:07 @<henne> skh do you want to take that?
19:08 +<skh> henne: it's marked as yours ;-)
19:08 @<henne> yeah yeah :P
19:08 +<skh> but yes.
19:08 +<skh> I'm actually happy about the detailed discussion. I think there's a slight tendency to actually have, which surprised me.
19:09 +<skh> but hey, that's why we asked.
19:09 +<Viras> I want to say a few things
19:09 @<darix> welcomes viras.
19:10 +<skh> My proposal would be that we will now prepare to setup a forum, but try to involve the existing forum owners if they like to.
19:10 @<darix> Viras: get irssi :p
19:10 +<Viras> lol
19:10 @<henne> stop chatting darix
19:10 +<Viras> hey I'm here in the middle of nowhere using my cellphone with GPRS and nettalk ^^
19:11 +<skh> setting up the forum will take us some time, so it would be a good point for you to sort out the finer details.
19:11 @<henne> ok so any objections to skh's proposal?
19:11 +<Viras> so, what I want to say is that I do not think that a official forum is needed
19:11 +<skh> if opinion swings, we can just throw away the test installation and assume nothing happened.
19:11 +<Viras> and that with that decision you will make those people angry who invested a lot of time and money into the community with building community forums
19:12 +<skh> Viras: this was discussed on the mailing list.
19:12 @<henne> Viras: would a test forum hurt you?
19:12 +<skh> it is a valid objection and, if I may say, my former opinion ;-)
19:12 +<cthiel> henne: that would be a "beta" forum.. .;)
19:12 +<Viras> obviously it would not, but would it help?
19:12 +<cthiel> henne: google is pretty good in doing "beta" stuff, so why shouldn't we try to do it as well...
19:13 @<henne> Viras: i dont know if you participated but we had a lenghty discussion on the mailinglist about that
19:13 +<the_dude> henne: it might alienate people, which would be a bad thing
19:13 +<Viras> for me it's actually not question, that an official forum would be a success
19:13 @<darix> cthiel: google usually puts stuff into production at some point.
19:13 +<skh> but if enough people want an official forum (which I think is the case) and work together with the existing forum owners
             (which they did, thanks to all), I don't see the problem any more, to be honest.
19:13 +<cthiel> darix: I don't want to start chatting... but no, they don't ;)
19:13 +<Viras> henne: well I read the whole discussion, but wasn't really involved in it
19:13 +<skh> we could vote.
19:13 +<Viras> well
19:13 @<henne> Viras: glad to hear. thanks for taking the time! :)
19:14 +<skh> it's a controversial topic and will stay so.
19:14 +<Viras> how do you want to work together with the existing forum owners?
19:14 +<yaloki> there wasn't any decision on the list, actually we're now much further away from having a decision than when the thread started
19:14 +<skh> yaloki: exactly. mailing lists don't decide anything.
19:14 @<henne> yaloki: so whats your proposal on how we should handle this? :)
19:14 +<yaloki> I tried several times to concentrate the discussion on having some decision but.. it's hopeless
19:15 +<skh> yaloki: would voting help, or a benevolent dictator decision from @suse?
19:15 @<henne> Viras: would you like to participate in definig this?
19:15 +<yaloki> I really don't know, I don't see any best option. I have to say I'm extremely disappointed by the attitude of, basically they
                just don't care about the openSUSE community.
19:15 +<cthiel> skh: no, I don't think voting is a good option in this case.
19:15 +<Viras> of course, that's why I'm here
19:16 +<the_dude> my opinion is we should concentrate on fixing things that are broken
19:16 @<darix> yaloki: do you think is something you can call a "suse forum"?
19:16 +<cthiel> skh: it's really hard to get a representative group to have equal chances on both sides
19:16 +<yaloki> IMO we really, really need to get the current forum maintainers together on a list, which has not happened to this point. The
                folks (Viras is the admin there) are the only ones who picked up the thread on the mailing-list (albeit quite late).
19:17 +<skh> yaloki: then please do wo.
19:17 +<skh> so
19:17 +<yaloki> not me, not before FOSDEM
19:17 @<henne> how about using Viras forum to do that?
19:17 +<Viras> well what you do have to see, is that forums are a lot of work
19:17 @<henne> could we get other forum maintainers to go trhere and participate in the discussion?
19:17 +<skh> folks, I need to leave. I'm sorry.
19:17 +<Viras> henne: yes we can setup a category for that discussion
19:18 @<henne> skh: take care. dont do anything i would do!
19:18 @<henne> so how about this proposal? take the forum diskussion into the forum
19:18 @<henne> and invite other maintainers
19:18 +<yaloki> +1
19:18 +<skh> +1
19:19 +<yaloki> maybe it will work better than asking them to come on a mailing-list
19:19 +<yaloki> a media most of them don't seem to like very much (or be comfortable with)
19:19 +<skh> and I'll go on talking to internal people about resources and hardware etc, just in case
19:19 @<henne> yeah i think so too
19:19 +<Viras> well
19:19 +<Viras> I think why many do not reply to the mailing list is
19:19 +<yaloki> skh: +1, excellent
19:20 +<Viras> that the mailing list gives the impression that you think that community forums are worth nothing (you as in the mailing list people)
19:20 @<henne> Action Item skh: continue to prepare official forum
19:20 +<yaloki> (let's please let Viras make his voice heard, he's the best placed person to talk about this topic in here ;))
19:20 +<Viras> and I mean I can remember days when we asked SuSE for some help and did not even get a reply, and now you want us to work together with you and try to find a solution
19:21 +<garloff__> Viras: Give us the chance to improve ...
19:21 +<yaloki> Viras: keep in mind, openSUSE != SUSE/Novell
19:21 @<henne> Action Item Viras: setup a category on for the forum discussion
19:21 +<Viras> I will, I will, that's why I'm here
19:21 @<henne> who will take care of inviting the other forum maintainers?
19:21 +<yaloki> I invited Viras in here, I did my part ;)
19:21 +<StormX>  Thanks henne for give me a voice
19:22 @<henne> StormX: you will take that action item?
19:22 +<StormX> yes np
19:22 @<henne> cool
19:22 +<StormX> and right?
19:23 +<Viras> yaloki: yes I know, but still you have to keep in mind that all those community forums were built without any help from suse, and now many fear
               that by creating an official forum you will destroy their work
19:23 @<henne> Action Item StormX: invite the other forum maintainers to the opensuse-forum category
19:23 @<henne> Viras: lets see what forum maintainers have to say about this
19:23 +<Viras> yes
19:23 +<Viras> I hope they will come
19:23 @<henne> StormX: all forum meintioned on the communicate page would be neat
19:23 +<Viras> we are really interested into a solution
19:24 @<henne> Viras: if not then *shrug*
19:24 +<StormX> ok I do my best to get them on our board
19:24 @<henne> StormX: who are you btw? :)
19:24 +<StormX> the other admin from
19:24 +<Viras> second admin of ^^
19:24 @<henne> heh ok
19:24 @<henne> ok next topic?
19:24 @<henne> objections?
19:24 +<cthiel> go go go
19:24 +<Viras> but as propably most of you know, the past showed that merging communities can be a big mistake
19:24 +<Viras> so everyone is careful
19:25 +<Viras> okay I'm done now ^^
19:25 @<henne> hehe
19:25 @<henne> next topic

subfs discussion

19:25 @<henne> 4. subfs discussion results - houghi
19:25 @<henne> houghi_: go ahead
19:25 +<houghi_> Fron what I posted earlier:
19:25 +<houghi_> The general idea was that automounting should be available for everybody.
19:25 +<houghi_> As it looks now automounting will only be available for KDE and Gnome
19:25 +<houghi_> users. All other users will need to configure this themselves.
19:25 +<houghi_> Question 1 that will come up is: will this be the final situation or are
19:25 +<houghi_> there people working on solutions?
19:25 +<houghi_> Question 2 that will pop up is: what is the best way for non-KDE and
19:26 +<houghi_> Gnome users to enable automount?
19:26  * henne actually looked into that a bit
19:26 @<henne> just starting gnome-volume-manager is a nice way
19:27 +<jbl_> at the moment we are not working on a replacement for subfs
19:28 +<jbl_> the problem with it is that the kernel part is not maintainable and buggy
19:28 @<darix> jbl_: want to answer?
19:28 @<henne> jbl_: we know. the question is what can non-KDE non-GNOME non-Runlevel5 people use
19:28 +<aka_druid_> why cant there be an option? like offering both subfs and the new thing? And what abot automounting in runlevel 3?
19:29 @<henne> aka_druid_: because we dont want to maintain the subfs cruft in the kernel
19:29 +<tame1> I dislike the idea that I have to install any part of gnome to have automounting.
19:29 +<aka_druid_> some forced upgrade made ppl very annoyed in the past.. like the apache 1.3 to 2.0, kernel 2.4 to 2.6...
19:29 +<jbl_> because for subfs support we need to change hal, kde and gnome
19:29 +<jengelh> What about supermount?
19:29 @<henne> aka_druid_: you have several options in runlevel 3. like autofs
19:30 +<tame1> then why not autofs in runlevel 5?
19:30 @<henne> guys let me clarify one thing
19:30 @<henne> we are not going to maintain subfs any more!
19:30 +<tame1> automounting should not be associated with window managers
19:30 +<aka_druid_> but you dont give a good alternative, so?
19:30 @<henne> that decision is made and is beyond our little group here
19:30 +<jbl_> aka_druid_: we have a alternative for the desktop
19:31 @<henne> this discussion is NOT about bringing subfs back
19:31 +<jbl_> but we expect the console user to be that smart to learn how mount is working
19:31 @<henne> jbl_: those comments are what make this discussion so hard
19:31 @<henne> and thats a bold rather strange comment
19:31 +<jengelh> Yeah sure everyone knows how to mount, but if it's been done automatically, users became lazy (including me)
19:32 @<henne> what you really mean is: we have no alternative for console users at the moment sorry
19:32 +<aka_druid_> jbl_: all I want is that when Im using my wmaker at my craptop Im able to put a cd, copy a file,a nd remove it fro m any file manager or conolse Im using, thats all
19:32 @<henne> aka_druid_: then gome-volume-manager is for you
19:32 +<jengelh> Well, how would KDE/GNOME do the automount? Why not just have a console daemon that does the very same?
19:32 +<houghi_> Also just put in a USB key and copy data when I log in on a CLI machine.
19:32 +<jbl_> jengelh: yes, we were thinking about that too
19:33 +<garloff__> Interactive console daemons are somewhat hard to create :-)
19:33 +<aka_druid_> henne: but gnome usually kills my craptop heh
19:33 @<henne> garloff__: no need to be interactive
19:33 @<henne> garloff__: gnome-volume-manager is not
19:33 @<darix> garloff__: subfs wasnt interactive at all.
19:34 +<jbl_> the problem is that such kind of daemon would mount anything
19:34 +<jengelh> jbl: Says who?
19:34 +<jbl_> at the moment the device appears
19:34 +<cthiel> garloff__: just have wall print some messages ;)
19:34 @<darix> cthiel: 'useful'
19:34 +<jengelh> Did not hald mount 'anything' too at the moment it got plugged?
19:34 @<henne> guys
19:35 @<henne> what is the problem with autofs?
19:35 +<jbl_> jengelh: no
19:35 +<jengelh> henne: I always thought of autofs being for NFS only.
19:35 +<tame1> henne: I still get a pain when you say things like gnome-volume-manager.  Automounting should not depend on ANY gnome libs being installed, nor KDE, etc.
19:35 @<henne> jengelh: then you thought wrong :)
19:35 @<henne> tame1: well welcome to the 2000's :)
19:35 +<jbl_> tame1: kde has its own nice solution
19:35 +<garloff__> cd              -fstype=auto,ro         :/dev/cdrom
19:35 @<henne> so nothing is wrong with autofs
19:35 +<jengelh> Then I guess someone needs to update the Kconfig text
19:36 @<henne> ok then
19:36  * tame1 has opinions about gnome libraries which cannot be repeated in mixed company
19:36 +<jengelh> because it reads "The automounter is a tool to automatically mount remote file systems on demand...@
19:36 @<henne> Action Item henne: write SDB article about alternatives of subfs
19:36 @<darix> jengelh: AI for you: update kernel help text.
19:36 @<henne> heh
19:36 +<jengelh> roger that!
19:37 +<tame1> I want something that works in IceWM, AfterStep, BlackBox, etc.  I'm whiny like that
19:37 @<henne> so its gnome-volume-manager if you have X and autofs
19:37 @<henne> next topic?
19:37 +<houghi_> tame1: and in CLI as well
19:37 @<darix> henne: maybe someone should mention the kde solution?
19:37 +<tame1> henne: So if I have X at all, I have to have gnome-libs?
19:37 @<darix> or is it gvm aswell?
19:37 @<darix> jbl_: ?
19:37 +<tame1> yes houghi, cli as well
19:38 @<henne> darix: its bound to kded and i couldnt find anything about it
19:38 +<garloff__> darix: autofs works even on X if that's your preferred solution
19:38 @<henne> tame1: no. you can use autofs
19:38 @<henne> but thats details
19:38 +<jengelh> uh autofs works with console too, does not it!?
19:38 +<jbl_> i already did. kde is mounting the removable media with a little help from hal. works even nicer than with subfs
19:38 +<garloff__> jengelh: Sure
19:38 +<tame1> I CAN use autofs, but will that be openSuSE's default? Or will the default be gnome-volume-squatter?
19:38 @<henne> jbl_: but can you use that outside of kde?
19:38 @<darix> hmm garloff__ stupid question ... why did we get subfs at all ... if the preferred solution autofs was there before?
19:38 +<jengelh> Will you be using autofs V3 or V4?
19:39 +<jbl_> henne: no
19:39 @<henne> jengelh: V4
19:39 +<garloff__> jengelh: V4
19:39 @<henne> jbl_: thats the point
19:39 @<henne> jbl_: you can use gnome-volume-manager outside of gnome
19:39 +<jbl_> the problem with autofs is the long unmount timeout
19:39 @<henne> KDE beaten
19:39 @<henne> :P
19:39 @<henne> jbl_: can be configured
19:39 +<garloff__> darix: Not really sure. One disadv of autofs is that you can't see the mountpoints without cat ting /etc/auto.*, so TAB name completion fails.
19:40 +<jbl_> henne: a too short timeout isnt good for performance
19:40 +<tame1> 1st entry on a google search of autofs is a 1998 howto
19:40 @<henne> ok guys we are leaving the track again!!!!
19:40 +<garloff__> Another one is that the default timeout is ridicolously long (but that can be changed)
19:40 +<garloff__> henne: Sorry
19:40 @<henne> does anyone have another action item for this topic??
19:40 @<darix> henne: we are discussing alternatives ... why is this offtopic?
19:40 @<henne> darix: because we can discuss technicalitys elsewere
19:40 +<azouhr_1> please tell me the mailing list where this is discussed
19:41 @<henne>
19:41 +<azouhr_1> thanks
19:41 +<houghi_> Conclusion is that autofs is the only serious alterbative?
19:41 +<jbl_> one can look into hal and force every cd to be mounted. but umounting is still a manual task
19:41 @<henne> + gnome-volume-manager if you are using X anyway
19:41 +<azouhr_1> basically this discussion is not useful. it is not about tools, it is about functionality.
19:41 +<tame1> holy ****. Autofs hasn't been updated since 2001?
19:41 +<jengelh> as I noticed.
19:41 +<azouhr_1> what you need to define, is a console and who is logged into the console, and what devices are attached there.
19:42 +<garloff__> tame1: autofs4 is there nowadays
19:42 @<henne> azouhr_1: please no more technicalitys!!!
19:42 +<jengelh> -ies
19:42 @<henne> help me write the SDB article!
19:42  * henne will post it to
19:43 @<henne> Action Item henne: post SDB article about subfs replacements to
19:43 @<darix> henne: do we call EOT?
19:43 @<henne> can we finaly do the next topic?
19:43 +<jbl_> go
19:43 @<henne> any objections?
19:43 @<darix> henne: yes
19:43 +<houghi_> henne: ok
19:44 @<henne> next topic is

Linux Tag

19:44 @<henne> 5. LinuxTag - Christian Boltz
19:44 @<henne> cboltz: yours!
19:44 +<cboltz> Well, my first question was already answered:
19:45 +<cboltz> Will (open)SUSE be at LinuxTag? - cthiel said "yes"
19:45 +<michl> a clear yes and no
19:45 @<darix> cboltz: which linuxtag?
19:45 @<darix> chemnitz or karlsruhe?
19:45 +<cboltz> The remaining question: What exactly will be there? A booth? Talks? Devroom?
19:45 +<cthiel> wiebaden
19:46 +<cthiel> darix, that's the new karlsruhe...
19:46 +<michl> openSUSE applied for a community both in Wiesbaden
19:46 +<michl> we haven't received yes an answer
19:47 @<henne> ok. anything else new regarding this topic michl?
19:47 +<michl> no
19:47 @<henne> cboltz: so still undecided
19:47 @<henne> next topic?
19:47 +<michl> the deadline for applying was Feb 3
19:48 @<henne> coastGNU: please repeat
19:48 +<coastGNU> joey was resposible for the community boothes, and a lot more. I, and not only I would say he's more than 50% of linuxtag during the event
19:49 @<henne> and he left?
19:49  * cthiel has to leave...
19:49 +<coastGNU> The3re was a long posting on planet debian where joey explained why he left
19:49 @<henne> ok so what would imply that?
19:50 @<henne> that this could be the reason that we dont have an answer yet?
19:50 +<coastGNU> So I would always vote for having a bulletproof fallback for all what is aranged by linuxtag e.V.
19:50 @<henne> ok nice to know
19:50 @<henne> thanks thomas
19:50 +<coastGNU> henne: Might be so, I don't know who took joeys job
19:51 @<henne> michl: so it might be worth to get back to them
19:51 @<henne> michl: and ask
19:51 @<henne> again
19:51 @<henne> :)
19:51 +<michl> will do
19:51 @<henne> next topic?
19:51 +<cboltz> What about the "good old" SUSE (maybe Novell) booth that was always there in Karlsruhe (except last year)? Up to now you only answered about "community booth" ;-)
19:51 @<darix> henne: which is?
19:51  * henne brings AJaeger more coffee
19:51 +<coastGNU> But due to the fact that they claim to have a 'professional org team' it might be a good idea to call them by phone
19:52 @<darix> AJaeger: *ping*
19:52 @<henne> michl: what about a novell/suse booth?
19:52 +<michl> Novell EMEA told me, they won't go
19:52 @<henne> ok
19:52 +<cboltz> Not OK :-(
19:52 +<cboltz> SUSE was really missed last year...
19:52 @<henne> of course its not but you have to accept that
19:53 @<henne> like we do
19:53 @<henne> you dont have to agree with it :)
19:53 @<henne> for the record
19:53 @<darix> cboltz: i think it is a good point to show the community engagement ... i mean it shouldnt be only novell/suse people at this booth. some community people could be there aswell.
19:53  * henne does not
19:53 +<coastGNU> Someone has to tell Novell that not beeing at linuxtag will be seen as a further disgr5ace of Novell!
19:54 @<henne> summary: so a suse/novell booth is a no-go and we have no confirmation about the community boot
19:54 +<notlocalhorst> i will take care of that :-)
19:54 @<henne> Action Item michl: get back to the linuxtag orga team
19:54 +<coastGNU> henne: Are Novell'ians at FOSDEM?
19:55 @<henne> coastGNU: sure
19:55  * henne is a Novellian
19:55  * henne is on FOSDEM
19:55 @<henne> so yes :)
19:55 @<darix> henne: next?
19:55 @<henne> if nobody has any action item anymore?
19:56 +<coastGNU> henne: Might be an idea to give them some kind of guided tour, to talk to well known and reputated protagonists who will tell them
                  how the free software world would judge novell not beeing at linuxtag?
19:56 @<henne> coastGNU: there will be only suse developers
19:57 +<coastGNU> henne: Ok, to be more precisely. Im talking of Novell chiefs, not novell indians like you who go and fight the battles
19:57 @<henne> ok next topic
19:57 @<henne> ok finaly next topic

SDB migration to wiki

19:57 @<henne> 7. SDB - howtos, migration, what is an SDB article - (not)localhorst
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> ok, this is first an update, migration is done ... now lower your shields, c&p
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> the support database (SDB) was one of the first place to go when a user had
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> problems with SuSE Linux. We migrated the SDB to the opensuse wiki and would
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> like to see other people to add but also to edit the articles. I thing it's
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> not clear what is the difference between an SDB article and a howto. The
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> focus in the SDB was always to help the customer with a step by step guide to
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> solve problems, if possible. The advantage of the new SDB is that we have a
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> namespace (SDB:) for that, so searching is easier. There is a howto available
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> which also have a little styleguide included, but as everything in a wiki
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> this is a living process ...
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> What i'm asking for is should we try to migrate the Howtos we had before the
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> SDB migration to the SDB or is everybod happy how it works right now. We
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> should also try to make the users aware of the new SDB, they should think
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> about to write articles there. This is not a try to replace the User
19:58 +<notlocalhorst> Documentation page, and thanks all contributers to this page! Opinions?
19:59 @<henne> +1 for moving howtos into the SDB
19:59 @<henne> i would like to see that
20:00 @<henne> so users dont have to search the whole wiki for documentation
20:00 @<darix> *gives notlocalhorst a medal for his work*
20:00 +<notlocalhorst> me to, we should start this on the mailinglist
20:00  * notlocalhorst gives it back to darix
20:00 @<henne> houghi_: repeat please :)
20:00 +<houghi_> feedback from Usenet. People liked it much better then on the Novell site. They thought it was almost as nice as the pre-Novell time
20:01 +<notlocalhorst> nice
20:01 @<henne> coastGNU: please repeat
20:02 @<henne> he said
20:02 @<henne> If there is a difference in quality complexity between this two I would vote for having howtos and sdb
20:02 +<coastGNU> What would be good is a set of docs (sdb/howto) which reflect a different state of complexity
20:02 @<henne> notlocalhorst: could you make up a styleguide on howtos?
20:02 @<henne> or could anyone?
20:02 +<notlocalhorst> there is already one
20:02 @<darix> henne: i think he is already working on one.
20:02 +<notlocalhorst> for the sdb
20:02 @<henne> oh even better
20:02 +<coastGNU> So there might be a better chance for beginners to get involved on 'starter' faq/howtos/sdbs
20:02 @<henne> notlocalhorst: yes but make up an style guide for howtos
20:03 +<notlocalhorst> i will do
20:03 @<henne> where howtos == more complex things than SDB articles
20:03 +<notlocalhorst> yes, the basic idea of sdb was to give short/fast help
20:03 @<darix> coastGNU: stuff like that can be solved by categories
20:03 @<henne> notlocalhorst: exactly
20:03 @<darix> coastGNU: [[Category:SDB:starter]]
20:03 @<darix> e.g.
20:04 +<coastGNU> henne: But it would be good to have sdb's inside howtos, at least as a link
20:04 @<henne> yes but we should keep the SDB free of HOWTO like writings
20:04 @<henne> really complex things
20:04 @<henne> or not?
20:04 +<notlocalhorst> ack
20:04 +<notlocalhorst> coastGNU: sure, no problem
20:04  * henne puts the drunk mmj on +q
20:04 +<coastGNU> tell this a novice user, he first has a look on the naming schema not on Categories
20:05 @<henne> Action Item notlocalhorst: write HOWTO styleguide
20:05 @<henne> Action Item notlocalhorst: communicate that we want to keep SDB clean of HOWTO like writings
20:05 @<henne> any more action items?
20:05 +<cboltz> Currently, the "old" SDB on is still available. Will it be replaced by redirects to the wiki?
20:05 +<notlocalhorst> cboltz: yes
20:05 @<henne> cboltz: yes
20:06 +<coastGNU> BTW, is anyone still using susebuch macros? It might be an idea to have them aside lyx, (as I have) so we would get a standalone howto/faq/sdb toolset like poedit
20:06 +<coastGNU> s/standalone/offline/
20:06 @<henne> coastGNU: please participate in the discussion on
20:06 @<darix> coastGNU: for all tool chain stuff ... think of integration with the wiki
20:07 @<henne> technical details
20:07 @<henne> AJaeger: please repeat
20:07 +<AJaeger> coastGNU: The documentation team is not using LaTeX anymore, they switched to XML and FO completely.
20:08 @<darix> coastGNU: the suse documentation is using novdoc which is a subset of docbook and xslt/xsl:fo for the documentatin generation nowadays.
20:08 @<henne> technical details
20:08 @<henne> please take this discussion to opensuse-wiki
20:08 @<henne> once notlocalhorst started it
20:09 @<henne> can we finally come to the really really really IMPORTANT point? :)
20:09 @<henne> i guess so
20:09 @<darix> henne: beer?

SUSE Linux 10.1 Status / Roadmap

20:09 @<henne> 9. SUSE Linux 10.1 Status / Roadmap - AJ
20:09 @<henne> AJaeger: go :)
20:09 +<coastGNU> darix & AJaeger: Lyx supports docbook, it only needs a style file for novdoc... But, this may be discussed on opensuse-wiki
20:09 @<darix> oh that point
20:10 +<AJaeger> Ok, thanks henne for switching to my topic ;-)
20:10 +<AJaeger> I've several subtopics on the status of SUSE Linux 10.1:
20:10 @<henne> the other topic we (CDB/HCL) had is canceld because the_dude had some other meeting
20:10 +<AJaeger> henne_log: Can I continue?
20:10 @<henne> sure
20:10 @<henne> sorry to interrupt
20:10 +<AJaeger> * Kernel Changes km_ packages
20:10 +<AJaeger> * non-GPL kernel modules
20:10 +<AJaeger> * Major bug in Beta3: Fontconfig
20:10 +<AJaeger> * Package manager major changes
20:11 +<AJaeger> Let's discuss one by one - we start with the km_ packages:
20:11 +<AJaeger> Kernel Changes km_ packages:
20:11 +<AJaeger> We moved away from km_* packages that are used at kernel-default buildtime to -kmp
20:11 +<AJaeger> packages that can be build independendly on top of e.g. kernel-default.
20:11 +<AJaeger> With this change all the kernel-*nongpl packages become obsolete and
20:11 +<AJaeger> we now have extra e.g. wlan-kmp-default packages.
20:11 +<AJaeger> Any comments on this?
20:11 @<henne> does not seem so
20:12 @<henne> continue please
20:12 +<AJaeger> Ok, next one - if there are comments, we can revisit it again.
20:12 +<AJaeger> non-GPL kernel modules:
20:12 +<AJaeger> Most developers of the kernel community consider non-GPL kernel modules
20:12 +<AJaeger> to be infringing on their copyright.  Novell does respect this position
20:12 +<AJaeger> and refrains from distributing non-GPL kernel modules for future products.
20:12 +<AJaeger> Novell works with vendors to supply alternative ways to provide the
20:12 +<AJaeger> functionality that was previously only available with non-GPL kernel
20:12 +<AJaeger> modules.
20:13 +<AJaeger> so, the kernel-*nongpl package has been dropped and will not be provided anymore.
20:13 +<AJaeger> Comments?
20:13 @<darix> moin j.e.
20:13 +<jengelh> well finish first, AJaeger
20:13 +<houghi_> Will this cause any direct problems?
20:13 +<AJaeger> jengelh: That's it for this subtopic.
20:13 +<jengelh> well I wanted to ask on the first oen
20:14 +<AJaeger> houghi_: It means that the Atheros WLAN driver is not working with a package from one of the SUSE servers anymore :-(
20:14 +<jengelh> on this one too maybe
20:14 @<henne> AJaeger: what about retail? also not?
20:14 +<AJaeger> jengelh: go ahead on this one - and then let's go back
20:14 +<jengelh> buyout nvidia and open the source. :>
20:15 +<jengelh> Anyway, the nongpl modules (or xxx-kmp-yyy) should not be entirely dropped
20:15 +<AJaeger> henne: Novell will not distribute *any* non-GPL kernel modules - neither via our ftp servers nor via the box product, nor via any enterprise product.
20:15 @<henne> ok
20:15 +<jengelh> Does this also affect the nvidia driver update?
20:15 @<henne> then a question that belongs to that question
20:15 +<cboltz> What is the supposed solution/workaround for people who currently *need* nongpl modules? Not install 10.1 at all?
20:15 +<AJaeger> jengelh: we're currently evaluating on what to do with the nvidia driver update.
20:15 @<henne> AJaeger: does this solution you talk about include driver updates for installation?
20:16 +<AJaeger> garloff__: Go ahead.
20:17 +<garloff__> The paradigm shifted. We had to distribute all kernel modules ourselves as part of the kernel packages. Nice, as this way changes to the kernel ABI were no problem.
20:17 +<garloff__> But, we can not constantly update all drivers, especially not in released products.
20:17 +<garloff__> So, we set them free.
20:18 +<AJaeger> Meaning the kmp change.
20:18 +<garloff__> Yes.
20:18 +<garloff__> When a security update kernel is released, the installer will find out if it breaks third party modules.
20:18 +<garloff__> If so, it will try to find an updated module.
20:19 @<henne> neat
20:19 @<henne> but what about installation?=
20:19 +<AJaeger> So, for those wanting a driver that is not part of SUSE Linux, it should be easy to build an additional driver package and make this available to others?
20:19 +<garloff__> It looks at registered installation/update sources, so in the inital installation, that needs to be added by the user once.
20:20 @<henne> garloff__: you cant add an installation source during installation. except the main one
20:20 +<garloff__> We're checking whether we can offer more automatic ways.
20:20 @<henne> ok
20:20 +<garloff__> henne: You're talking old YaST,
20:20 @<henne> will this be done in 10.1?
20:20 @<henne> garloff__: heh ok
20:20 +<garloff__> Yep.
20:21 @<henne> garloff__: can you write user documentation about that? :)
20:21 @<henne> or does anyone else want to?
20:21 +<garloff__> It exists in pieces (slides, white papers)
20:21 +<garloff__> I need to push out the right pieces.
20:21 +<AJaeger> The part on building kmp packages is documented already.  The user part needs to be done AFAIK.
20:22 @<henne> garloff__: i really mean end user docu. like click here and add this there and so on
20:22 @<henne> so who wants to do this?
20:22 @<henne> preferably in the WIKI SDB
20:22 +<garloff__> henne: I thought you'd add an articel to opensuse wiki ;-)
20:22 @<henne> nah i only have to unclutter the subfs case :)
20:22 @<henne> c'mon guys who wants to do that?
20:22 +<AJaeger> henne_log: you can make a subfs-kmp package if you like ;-)
20:23 @<darix> garloff__: you can write in the wiki too. :)
20:23  * henne provides the neccesarry contacts
20:23 +<schiele> Ist there already an example for such an kmp package availlable?
20:23 +<garloff__> darix: OK, you got me ...
20:23 @<darix> schiele: in factory should be one maybe?
20:23 +<garloff__> schiele: Part of the docu on
20:23 @<darix> AJaeger: are they pushed out in beta4 at least?
20:23 +<AJaeger> schiele: Andreas Gruenbacher send an email about this - and beta4 will have the first ones.
20:23 +<jengelh> none in factory
20:24 +<AJaeger> darix: AFAIK the switch to kmp is done for Beta4 in all parts.
20:24 @<henne> jengelh: interested in writing the docu? :)
20:24 +<jengelh> maybe, but ATM there are no example files/etc.
20:24 @<henne> in the wiki
20:24 +<AJaeger> jengelh: Each new package needs to go through a review first, most of this was done only today.
20:24 +<jengelh> plus i'm not a KDE/Yast mousepusher
20:24 @<henne> jengelh: no problem ill get you those
20:24 @<henne> jengelh: ah sad :(
20:24 @<henne> ;)
20:24 @<henne> anyone else?
20:25 +<jengelh> well I can write "just enter rpm -Uhv xxx-kmp at the console and it's in"
20:25 +<garloff__> And indeed, subfs KMP should be possible -- or do you need VFS changes?
20:25 +<jengelh> subfs was to be dropped
20:25 @<henne> c'mon people no one wants to write documentation?
20:25 +<garloff__> jengelh: Which means that we won't provide the KMP. SOmeone else can ;-)
20:25 +<jbl_> garloff__: subfs needs changes in hal and kde/gnome
20:26 +<notlocalhorst> henne: let me look at it first ...
20:26 +<AJaeger> jbl_: If you don't use kde/gnome...
20:26 +<jbl_> there is still hal
20:26 @<henne> notlocalhorst: sure you can always say "im too stupid"
20:26 +<notlocalhorst> you are welcome ...
20:26 @<henne> Action Item notlocalhorst: write documentation about the end user part of the KMP switch
20:26 +<jengelh> who is the author of subfs anyway?
20:27 @<henne> AJaeger: please continue
20:27 +<garloff__> notlocalhorst/henne: I'll give you input, so no worries  ...
20:27 +<AJaeger> ok, next subtopic: Major bug in Beta3: Fontconfig
20:27 +<AJaeger> It might be that X11 apps just crash, which is a bug in fontconfig.
20:27 +<AJaeger> First fix in the fixed-rpm package on, current
20:27 +<AJaeger> packages on
20:27 +<AJaeger> - use both fontconfig and fonts-config.
20:28 @<henne> AJaeger: can you announce that to factory please?
20:28 +<AJaeger> So, I'd like to ask you to test those extra packages as well.  The team has done extra optimizations today that will not go into beta4.
20:28 +<AJaeger> henne_log: I'll do.
20:28 +<AJaeger> henne_log: AI ajaeger to announce fontconfig changes on factory ;-)
20:28 @<henne> Action Item AJaeger: announce fontconfig location on factory
20:28 @<henne> ok :)
20:29 +<AJaeger> Hope that we really fixed all fontconfig issues.  Any questions on fontconfig?
20:29 @<darix> henne: and maybe on opensuse@o....
20:29 @<henne> uhm no. keep factory topics on factory
20:29 @<darix> ok
20:29 +<garloff__> AJaeger: All fontconfig issues? Must be an optimistic day of yours.
20:29 +<AJaeger> garloff__: I've had my espresso and now I'm optimistic!
20:29 @<henne> AJaeger: no questions. please continue
20:30 +<AJaeger> Ok.
20:30 +<AJaeger> Package Manager major changes:
20:30 +<AJaeger> We're replacing our package manager resolver library with a new version
20:30 +<AJaeger> called "libzypp".  This integration is more complex than estimated and
20:30 +<AJaeger> therefore we decided:
20:30 +<AJaeger> * to have beta4 available a day later than planned
20:30 +<AJaeger> * to have an additional beta5 next week
20:30 +<AJaeger> * the package manager in beta4 will only have reduced functionality
20:30 +<AJaeger> We're still working on the integration of "libzypp" into our tree and
20:30 +<AJaeger> hope to have both update and new installation working.
20:30 +<AJaeger> Together with libzypp, we get the zmd daemon, the rug command line interface,
20:30 +<AJaeger> the zen-updater, zen-remover, zen-installer packages.  They all handle
20:30 +<AJaeger> yum sources and additionally Zenworks servers as installation sources.
20:30 +<AJaeger> Henne, before you ask: AI aj: to send this to factory as well.
20:30 @<henne> haha
20:30 @<henne> ;)
20:30 @<darix> AJaeger: will rug/zen* handle normal yast sources aswell?
20:30 +<AJaeger> So, this means that I'd like you to test package installation/update with beta4.
20:31 @<darix> like packman and friends?
20:31 @<henne> AJaeger: the layout of installation sources does not change?
20:31 +<AJaeger> darix: rug/zen will handle any YUM repository. If not, you've found a bug.
20:31 +<AJaeger> henne_log: We switch completely to YUM!
20:31 @<henne> AJaeger: what about rug/zen and YaST sources?
20:31 @<henne> ok so no yast sources anymore
20:31 @<darix> AJaeger: YAST != yum
20:31 @<henne> is that right?
20:32 @<darix> yast source != yum source
20:32 +<AJaeger> I'm not sure whether old YaST source are still supported.  I'll ask tomorrow the experts...
20:32 @<darix> AJaeger: mailing that too?
20:32 @<darix> :)
20:32 @<henne> AJaeger: please put that into your factory mail because it is important for 3rd party packagers
20:32 @<henne> very important :)
20:32 +<AJaeger> henne_log: Will do.
20:32 @<henne> thanks
20:32 +<AJaeger> Further questions on Yast?
20:32 +<AJaeger> I mean package manager
20:33 +<garloff__> or updater
20:33 +<AJaeger> or zen-remover ;-)
20:33 +<benJIman> Why is susewatcher being replaced by zen-updater at this stage? when zen-updater is clearly not ready, susewatcher plays a small but very important role.
20:33 +<benJIman> The gtk frontend doesn't work properly in kde (context menu doesn't open properly), it's very unclear how to use it, with interesting
		  features like and what on earth does this dialogue do?
 		  the main window has unlabeled input fields.
20:34 +<garloff__> benJIman|tov: There will be a Web-UI as well, so the interface should not really bug you
20:34 @<henne> benJIman: did you file bugreports? we are talking about beta versions here
20:34 +<AJaeger> susewatcher needed to be ported to the new staff our usability experts liked to do it from scratch.
20:34 +<AJaeger> There's a "web-updater" as well.
20:34 +<benJIman> AJaeger: but if 10.1 will be stuck with zen-updater it's hardly ideal
20:34 +<CuCullin> are srpm's handled by yum? if so, how?
20:34 +<AJaeger> benJIman|tov: Please report bugs against the "ZenWorks" comment.
20:35 @<darix> AJaeger: actually in one of the newer linux magazin judged that susewatcher had a good usability
20:35 @<henne> benJIman: it wont be like it is now
20:35 +<AJaeger> darix: Ok, have to tell the usability "experts" -)
20:35 +<Beineri> benJIman: if you mean the "context menu open first time at wrong place" bug, the Bugzilla report (#147583) for that is RESOLVED
20:36 @<henne> so obviously there is a lot to do in that area :)
20:36 +<CuCullin> AJ: On occasion, I like to do a slightly custom build of an app, so I use srpm's, and modify as needed.  Is there any interface in the new
                  package management method to handle srpms, like changes to the spec for a build?
20:37 +<AJaeger> henne_log: Yes, there's a lot to do and I appreciate testing and constructive feedback on what should be done in 10.2 in these areas!
20:37 +<AJaeger> CuCullin: No idea about that, I doubt it.
20:37  * henne too
20:37 +<CuCullin> any handling of srpms at all?
20:37 @<henne> that hardly fits into a usecase of a packagemanager
20:37 @<henne> CuCullin: define handling
20:37 @<henne> like installing?
20:38 +<CuCullin> as in,installing, even without modification
20:38 +<CuCullin> yes
20:38 +<AJaeger> CuCullin: What you describe is something that we like to solve with the "openSUSE build service" - visit us at FOSSDEM - end of FOSSDEM commercial.
20:38 @<darix> CuCullin: you could create your own local source
20:38 +<CuCullin> I'm in NJ/NYC :) Otherwise I would
20:38 @<henne> so nobody knows
20:38 +<AJaeger> There's also the possibility to set packages to taboo, so those would not get updated.
20:38 @<henne> CuCullin: please find out and if not open a bugreport :)
20:39 +<CuCullin> ok, sounds good.
20:39 @<henne> AJaeger: the question is: can i install src.rpms with the new tools
20:39 @<henne> you cant with yum
20:39 @<henne> afair
20:39 +<AJaeger> henne_log: The "old" tools could, the YaST packagemanager supported it.
20:39 +<Beineri> AJaeger: unfortunately the taboo flag doesn't stick to next session :-|
20:39 @<henne> AJaeger: i know :)
20:40 @<darix> Beineri: file a bug after b4
20:40 @<darix> :)
20:40 +<AJaeger> hope the new version will still do - otherwise this is a regression that needs to be fixed asap ;-
20:40 @<henne> AJaeger: so if the new one dont its a regression
20:40 +<CuCullin> thats why I'm asking about the new way :)
20:40 @<henne> ok
20:40 +<CuCullin> Ok, I'll check and file a report if necessary.
20:40 @<henne> cb400f: please repeat
20:40 +<cb400f> will the yast2 software management be available as yum/rpm frontend?
20:40 @<darix> oO
20:40 +<Beineri> darix: there is more than a wish report for that, unfortunately not against 10.1 so you can't vote for it :-)
20:40 +<garloff__> AJaeger: Taboo will probably not work yet in b4 ...
20:40 +<AJaeger> henne_log: Exactly. And then it needs to be fixed, I'm just not sure if it then will be possible to do so for 10.1 or only for 10.2.
20:40 @<darix> cb400f: what do you mean?
20:41 @<henne> AJaeger: sure we understand :)
20:41 +<cb400f> moving to yum .. does this mean i can't use yast2 for packagemanagement gui
20:41 +<AJaeger> garloff__: Yes, only the basic parts of the package manager GUI will work in beta4.
20:41 +<cb400f> and in final?
20:41 @<darix> cb400f: it moves to the repo-md format
20:41 @<darix> and yum is not the only tool that can read those
20:42 @<darix> yast2 packagemanager in 10.0 already handles those.
20:42 @<henne> so you can replace yum with yast2 :)
20:42 +<cb400f> ok
20:42 +<AJaeger> cb400f: We replace the backend of the package manager.
20:42 @<darix> aswell as smart pm.
20:42 +<cb400f> AJaeger: got i now
20:42 +<AJaeger> And there's rug as command line frontend as well that we support.
20:43 @<henne> and henne will force Angst to package y2pmsh 8)
20:43 +<garloff__> ... and maybe some scripting language bindings to libzypp ...
20:43 @<henne> new 10.1 subtopic or any more questions about the package manager?
20:43 @<darix> henne: klaus promised there will be a cli tool like y2pmsh for 10.2 at least.
20:43 @<henne> darix: promises prmoises
20:43 +<garloff__> darix: Yeah, that's why I said 'maybe' :-(
20:43 @<darix> garloff__: in worst case smart --shell :)
20:43 +<AJaeger> henne: I do not have further 10.1 subtopics, so would ask in the round for any 10.1 issues - or close the topic completely
20:43 @<darix> *hides from huha*
20:44 @<henne> so any 10.1 topic someone wants to be discussed?
20:44 @<darix> questions time *rings the bell*
20:44 @<henne> ok
20:44 @<henne> then lets call it a day
20:44 @<henne> thank you all for participating
--- Log closed Tue Feb 07 20:44:35 2006